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Not exactly. The people we are killing in Iraq are (for the most part) guilty of numerous heinous crimes against their own people, including outright torture and murder. The people Clinton killed were guilty of having non-mainstream religous beliefs, and possibly minor weapons violations, which were never proven.



The part of Bush's policies I don't agree with (the Patriot act, in particular) have nothing to do with Iraq.
 

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QUOTE-"One wonders what changed in society... for it certainly seems that we are no longer capable of producing such men."



The truth is we do have alot of people that have and still are making innovations every day! That being said the are now at the "improvement" stage of things. New cures, faster computers, faster/lighter motorcycles, faster more fuel efficient engines, ect. I am 30 3/4 years old ( I know not that old), but i have see quite a few changes in my short time. our more sesoned MoFo's have seen lots more inventions (like telivision for instance). my Pop had a 1974 KZ 900 that only produced about 90ish hp. the modern 900's produce way more and don't weigh 600+ lbs. Keep you eyes open and look around you you will see that there are things that are true inovations in everyday life, its just that we are used to them now and really don't pay any attention.



 

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Bingo, VWW. However, somehow this whole Saddam- 911 connection theory has evolved from the ether. I don't remember anyone asserting that the Saddam was involved in 9/11 (if that is the implication). Only that he was a threat and was in contact with terrorist elements. With the disovery of the documents of this past week, that would seem to be true to some extent. It is entirely possible that the Islamist elements and a secular dictator like Saddam would form an alliance. Anyone who asserts that it could never happen is woefully unaware of history and the history of that region in particular. By the way, Saddam was flagrantly violating international law for 12 years. That in itself is justification enough to remove him from power. What kind of precedent was the U.N. setting by never taking action?



And let's say we never went to Iraq. And one year later threre was a biological attack on Chicago that was linked with Iraq. Would we have another 9/11 Commission-style witch hunt that blamed the Bush adminsistration for missing the threat. I think we would. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.



What many don't seem to understand is that the Iraq war was a bold STRATEGIC move, not a tactical one in direct response to the 9/11 attack. We could all argue at this point that it was a mistake, but I choose to wait for the situation to develop fully. Strategic consequenses rarely play out in a matter months or even a couple of years.



 

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Tesla and Eddison were famous in their day. Not just in ours. We have some wild stuff going on right now... like the guy out in arizona building his own space craft... but not like it was back then. When I look around... I see no inovation.. I only see sloth...



But then... I'm stuck in West Virginia.
 

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"Hmmm... whatever the French (or indeed the Germans, talking about unspeakable atrocities) have done in the past justifies very little the absurdity going on now. "



That's not my point. European governments were, in large part, responsible for this mess. The resentment of the west started under European rule, not American rule. We are hated now mostly because we have become the preeminent power and symbol of the west. How did that happen? Mostly by bailing the Europeans out, particulary the French, whenever they botched something beyond recognition (usually successfully).



Most of the damage was done before George W. Bush was born, son. And now the Europeans want to take the path of least resistance once again. Reminds me of the 1930's all over again. But, history's not important, now, is it?



So the U.S. has to deal with the problem once again. Maybe we're sick of hearing how terrible us Americans are. Did you ever think that maybe we have something to be resentful about?



I'm sure the world would be a much better place if left to the Europeans. They've got such a wonderful track record.
 

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Apparently you missed most of the pre-war rhetoric pdad. Our current fearless leader and his minions endlessly trumpeted the Iraq/Al Queida connection to the point where opinion polls showed that over 60% of the people belived that Saddam's regime was directly complicit in the 9/11 attack. For an insiders view read Karen Kwiatkowski's archives at lewrockwell.com. As for the possibility of an Iraqi biological or nuclear attack see Gordon Prathers archive at wnd.com. The plain truth is and was that Saddam's nuclear capability was destroyed post Dessert Storm, and any biological weapons that he had stockpiled, and which he lacked the capability to reproduce after years of inspections, had degraded to uselessness.



Let us pray that we never decide to go it alone and invade every country that breaks UN edicts. Otherwise we will be invading Isreal, Sudan, Rawanda, Zimbabwe, Uzbekistan, and a host of others.



As for bold STRATEGIC moves, we have a little piece of paper that you may have heard of. We call it the constitution, and it prohibits these types of "adventures" by the executive branch of our government. To use your arguement what kind of precedent would we be setting if, as the final arbiters of our government, we allow this type of blatantly illegal activity from someone that is bound by oath and duty to uphold the law?



None of us has a crystal ball, but the hand writing is clearly on the wall that the strategic consequenses of this poorly contrived debacle will not bode well for the future of our dealings with the rest of the world. VWW
 

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"Hmmm... whatever the French (or indeed the Germans, talking about unspeakable atrocities) have done in the past justifies very little the absurdity going on now. "



That's not my point. European governments were, in large part, responsible for this mess. The resentment of the west started under European rule, not American rule. We are hated now mostly because we have become the preeminent power and symbol of the west. How did that happen? Mostly by bailing the Europeans out, particulary the French, whenever they botched something beyond recognition (usually successfully).



Most of the damage was done before George W. Bush was born, son. And now the Europeans want to take the path of least resistance once again. Reminds me of the 1930's all over again. But, history's not important, now, is it?



So the U.S. has to deal with the problem once again. Maybe we're sick of hearing how terrible us Americans are. Did you ever think that maybe we have something to be resentful about?



I'm sure the world would be a much better place if left to the Europeans. They've got such a wonderful track record.
 

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No VWW, I didn't miss any of it. While I respect your opinion, I had never once heard that anyone in the Bush adminstration believed that Saddam was directly involved in the the 9/11 attacks. In fact, they went to great pains to be specific about their assumptions about Saddam. Many were wrong, but none contained the explicit accusation of him being directly involved in 9/11. I can't speak for this poll you're referencing except to say that I'm not aware of it. I remember many polls in which a majority of the population believed there was a connection between Al Qaida and Saddam, but never one that confirmed a majority belief that Saddam was involved in 9/11.



I think that there is a bit of revisionism going on in the press and the collective-conscience of America.



As to the War being illegal, I can't agree. This is revisionism on the part of Dubya's opponents. Congress gave the authority to use military force. Whether or not you believe the administration knowingly decieved Congress can be argued untill the cows come home. I, myself, am not sure.



As to the WMD question. Saddam was doing everything in his power to make us believe he was hiding something. Maybe this was an attempt to maintain his standing in the region (as Hans Blix has theorized), maybe not. But he was given every opportunity to come clean. He never did.
 

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It has been said that we are out of things to create, the only thing left is to re-create/redisign/improve the things we have now. For example hybrid cars, hydro. fuel cells, carbon fiber bodies with aluminum frames, all in an attempt to recreate the car (to reduce emmissions as well as dependency on fossil fuels). We have been blessed with real-to-real sound recorders, then 4-tracks, then 8-tracks, the cassette tapes, now CD's, as well as mp3 players, and DVD's. Just look at all the stuff that has been done in the last 50 years, who knows what the next 50 will bring. Someone else posted about all the invention and innovation taking place inside large R&D facilities inside major corporations, and it is true but that means we have multiple Einstien's, Edisons, Tesla's, Bell's, Curtiss's, etc. now working together instead of all alone, brainstorming and accomplishing great things we just don't hear about it as much. Anyway, thats my 2 cents worth!
 

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I can agree with that. But maybe there are many people who want others to hate us. And I'm not talking Islamists here. Maybe there are others who have something to gain in all this, no? And maybe, just maybe, that's why the old lady in the flower shop hates us. Distortion is a powerful tool, my friend.



By the way, If we must be refered to as an "empire," I challenge you to go back through the annals of history and find a more benevolent one.



Funny how people forget what this country has done when they don't have to think about things. Now that we're just force-fed information, we don't have to chew on it.



Or maybe it's just jealosy. Or maybe, just fear that we're too powerful-- that the U.S. military will come marching into a town near you. I really don't think you have to worry.



P.S. Is is possible that someone actually hates Sweden?
 

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Only Congress can declare war pbad. The so called granting of authority by Congress was in itself an unconstitional act. Can't change it's constitutional duties without a LEGAL amendment process which involves ratification by 3/4 of the states.



Hans Blix also said that the inspection process was working and no WMD were found. Prior to the invasion Saddam offered the CIA to come and show Blix's inspection teams all of the "evidence" they had to help in finding the non-existant WMD. I wonder why they refused?



Do yourself a Favor and look at the lewrockwell.com archives written by someone that worked in the pentegon's near east intell division for clarification on the machinations of spinning intelligence to skew it for the Bush cabals desire for war. VWW
 

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First of all, tell me "pbad" was a typo. Or are you stealing material from Kpaul? God forbid.:)



Secondly, as you know, there was no official declaration of of war, just as there was none in Vietnam and the Korean War. This is all old news. There was also no official declaration of war during the first Gulf War and in Kosovo. Does that mean that all of those conflicts were illegal, too? (you can certainly argue that some were misguided, though.) The fact is that Congress sanctioned military action from both sides of the political divide.



As far as lewrockwell.com is concerned, I know something of it, although I can't say I've read it in-depth. I'm sure at least some of it is accurate. I do think that this administration was overly optimistic when interpreting intel data. But I'm not going to run around calling everyone associated with this administration a criminal based on one person's account. That is irresponsible at best.



I also don't think you would hand over military intel to the U.N. inspectors who were being manipulated at every turn. Especially when it's been proven that the U.N. had a stake in making sure Saddam stayed in power.
 

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So the 9/11 guys were not Shias? Oops well I believe they are peace loving and laid back folks and don't put fatwas and cut heads off people who tarnish their good name (come to think of it, I'd better get that Stage II kit after all)



- cruiz-euro
 

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If this was the case then wouldn't Big Twins be amoung the fastest bikes? As I understand it Torque is a force where HP is a measure of work being done (or capability). 1,000,000 ft/lbs of torque and 1 HP can only do 1 HP of work. Sportbike pilot? I would like some clarification here.
 

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Actually yes. All wars carried on without a declaration of war by Congress have been, and are, illegal.



The Constitution was not written to be used in good times and ignored in the bad. It was written for the bad. These illegal circumventions have lead to repeated unspeakable strife and harm.



The War Powers Act must be repealed. Until it is, we live in a dictatorship.



Ok.. I'll get off the soap-box now.
 

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Not true. Not at least technically. When someone successfully challenges these "illegal circumventions," I'll be with ya. But to my knowledge, no one has to date.



I'm not saying I'm totally comfortable with this, either, but the Constitution does allow a certain amount of interpretation to meet different times and situations.
 
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