[gasdive]

Grappelli said:



"3. can go offroad enough to get me there: a. and won't break when I crash it. "



All these bikes are far too fragile to be considered "off road" in any sence of the phrase.



I wouldn't take any one of these bikes on any road that I wouldn't take my CBR1000 on, so what's the use of them? They can only go where road bikes can go, and on sealed roads they're badly compromised. It's a useless trade off. You don't benefit from expanded capability off road, but you do lose out in onroad ability...



Cheers Jason = (Australia)

 

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Keebler wrote:



"It seems an adventure tourer is a larger bike that's meant to let riders tackle any road that comes their way, like five hundred mile of slab with fifty miles of gravel and a hundred miles of twisties"



With the exception of the five hundred miles of slab (which I hate) this is more or less exactly what I did with my CBR1000 a couple of days ago. Couldn't sleep, so I got out at dawn, and did about 100 miles of "slab", about 200 miles of twisties and 100 miles of gravel... Just as I said, anything you can do with these "adventure tourers" you can do with an ordinary tourer except that an ordinary tourer is more comfortable on the "slab", while also being faster and more stable through the twisties. I don't think an adventure tourer would be any better on the gravel roads so there's no gain on that side for the adventure bikes.



Cheers Jason =

 

[gasdive]

You're right, I've never been to Alaska (My Mum just came back from there though)



I'm not clear on what you mean... Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? From what I understand of Alaska a suitable bike is one that you can load on a boat with ease... If you're not using the boats to get around, then the conditions look pretty harsh, and you'd want something a good deal tougher than any of these bikes.



Or are you saying that the CBR1000 wouldn't be up to the challange? OK, maybe it woudn't, but if it isn't then none of these bikes would be either.



We have some dirt roads too... Australia is a similar size to the continental US and has less than 10th of the population. Not much money for roads. They only sealed the road from here to Perth (the transcontinental road across the Nullabour) about 20 years ago, so that was the first time you could travel between all the state capitals without leaving the blacktop. Even now, you reach the first dirt roads about 25 minutes from the centre of our largest city (how far is the first dirt out of New York?). The biggest selling bike in Australia (apart from bikes for the postmen) was the XR600 for years and years. Now the YZ426F has taken over. Yeah, we've got some dirt (which is why I added my country of origin...)



You've got frost damage on your blacktop as well... But we've got heat damage. Sometimes it gets so hot the tar melts, and the cars and trucks plough it up into lumps and hollows. These can be a foot high in places...



What I'm saying is that a properly ridden road bike can go anywhere these "adventure tourers" can go. If they were serious about building bikes for this role then they'd have high guards, more suspension travel, much much longer range, tough plastics (like a proper dirt bike) and they'd be close to 100 kg lighter. As they are they're pure road bikes with dumb suspension and poor riding positions. They're covered in LAQUERED!!! plastic!!!!! One drop and you'd be looking at hundreds of dollars damage. I read an Australian road test of the BMW 1000GS a few years back. The test only lasted about 60 km. They dropped it in sand at about 100 kays (60 miles an hour) and it tore the whole shaft drive and rear wheel off the bike!!!!!!! That's not something you can fix on the side of the road with beer cans and fencing wire.



These bikes are just a joke and a con. They look like they're "bad ass" (as you Americans say) Go-Anywhere Do-Anything mean machines, but they're just two wheel RAV4s. Fine for riding slowly between cafes but useless for anything else. For goodness sake, the Honda even has linked brakes!!!! How can you ride a bike even on a gravel road with linked brakes??? You could make a good case that the CBR1000 would be *better* off road than this thing. How would you get it around a sharp corner?? Do a three point turn?



Cheers Jason =

 

[gasdive]

Oops,



Brain fade, just read a similar comparo that included the Honda Verodero (spelling??) and that is what I was refering to in the "Honda even has linked brakes" bit.



Sorry Jason =

 

[gasdive]

Mmmm, That's interesting...



I wouldn't have thought that the GS could be ridden in mud. Perhaps our mud is different, but with that low mounted guard the kind of sticky clay we get would gloop it up and the front wheel would stop going round.



You've ridden your GS in sand and had no problems, and no, I wouldn't take my CBR on sand dunes (I've ridden it on a sandy track, but that's not "sand"). I don't know if I'd take a GS onto sand either..... I rode an R80GS Dakar on a sandy trail, and it was good, by leaning back and powering it up you could get the front to float nicely at about 80-100 km/h (50-60 mph) however when I complemeted the owner on its nice manners on sand he went white as a sheet, and having seen photos of a later model paralever bike broken in two when crashing on sand at about that speed, I can see why. (by broken in two, I mean the suspension unit, swing arm and back wheel 20 metres from the rest of the bike)





I've ridden road bikes on snow and what I'd call "mountain trails" (the roads around Leh in the Indian Himalaya) and while I'd have prefered to have my XR600, I couldn't have carried my 60 year old Mum with me on the XR.



Perhaps I'm just coming from a very different angle. I'd like a bike that was better able to cope with long hauls on blacktop, but nearly as good off road. I think of my XR as being much too heavy to really have a good time off road. I have all sorts of trouble keeping up with the guys on KTMs that are just 10 kg lighter, but the BMW is more than 100 kg heavier than the XR!!!!



It's surprising as the first G/S from BMW was their lightest bike, and pretty strong with it at 167 kg oil but no fuel, only about 40-50 kg heavier than a "dirt bike" and by far the lightest of the BMs at the time. Same mass as a CB250N. It had a long range with the 36 litre (9.5 gal) tank. Their current offering is 62 kg (140 lb) heavier and only has a 22 litre tank... While everyone else has been making their bikes lighter and stronger, (Honda Australia's current replacement for the CB250N is 45 kg lighter and 60 km/h faster!) BM has made theirs over 1/3 heavier and more fragile. Sure it now has power outlets for your 12v fluffy slippers, but has it made it better for its intended role? You can only answer "Yes" if its intended role is poncing about in towns or cruising up the autobahn to Aunt Helgas (is that how you have your Adventures?). If its intended role is ultra high speed dirt over terrible conditions of deep sand, rocks, rivers and mud, where it's 500 km to the next fuel, (ie *Adventure* touring) then no it's not better...



I guess I'm just disapointed. I really would like a 2002 version of the R80G/S. 1/3 lighter than the 1980 version (rather than 1/3 heavier), stronger, faster, more reliable, with a foot of suspension travel at both ends and 700 km range. Insead we're offered an expensive off road hippo.



Cheers Jason =

 

[gasdive]

Hi Grappelli,



I think you're right, we're saying the same thing but from different angles. All bikes are fun, all bikes have a place and all bikes can be made to do things they weren't really designed to do (and often, that's when you have the most fun).



I was saying, "hey, don't underestimate an ordinary tourer, it can be made to take you places you think you need an Adventure Tourer to tackle" While you're saying "Hey, don't underestimate Adventure Tourers, they can be made to take you places you think you need a dirt bike to tackle"



Personally I love making bikes to weird ***** (and it sounds like you do too)



I've never bested a sport bike in the twisties, but I fondly remember a "transport" on twisty road between trails. Me and a mate on XR600s with knobbies (real knobbies, the "Not for Highway Use" kind) and both running 12 psi front and rear. We came upon a guy giving his cruiser a hard scraping session on the "old road". God knows what he thought when one dirt bike went underneath him and one around him, both of them full on sideways, both with riders sitting on the tank with their inside foot up with their front axles...



Laugh! I thought we were both going to ***** ourselves at the next stop!





Still, on road the big singles are generally a pain. They vibrate so hard that your hands go strange after half an hour and you lose all feeling after an hour (which is a bit scary). The "seats" are so uncomfortable it's just unreal. You spend a lot of time standing up. So much infact that all the controls are set to be most comfortable standing. And tyres!!!Sheesh! I've never adjusted the chain on the XR because the tyre is worn out ***Long*** before any adjustment would be required. I get about 3-6 tanks of fuel out of a back tyre.



I guess I expected Adventure Tourers to address these issues while keeping most of the offroad abiltiy and that's just not realistic. Most of these bikes are sold in countries where there are almost no opportunities to ride off road and even if there are, they'd spend almost all their time onroad anyway.



Another interesting thing you said, that the bike had cost you $14 500. Here they're AUD$17 165 for the r1150GS which is about USD$9000. That includes 10% tax.



I also think you're right about the KTM. It really does look the ducks guts.



KTM Australia runs a great thing here where if you're interested in a bike they take you on a two day test ride in the bush. The guy I used to ride with on XRs has gone on one and bought a 400exc after riding most of the KTM range. Perhaps they'll put one of the new bikes on the test fleet when they come out.



Cheers Jason =

 

[gasdive]

Interesting you should mention the GSX-r 750...



Many years ago, I was sent on a riding course by the post office (I was a telegram boy and I had a small motorcycle to take telegrams out with)



Part of the course was about how to ride on unsuitable surfaces on road bikes. This was in 1987 and the then hot thing was the GSX-R 750 and the instructor was riding one. He took us out on a *Motorcross* track and showed us how to ride in sand, and then we did several laps with him showing us the fast line...



He then followed this up by explaining low speed manouvering, and showed us how to use the back brake (which up to that point I had completly ignored on all bikes).



He put the bike on full lock and whizzed around in circles, scraping the pegs!!!



What amazed me even more was that I was doing the same thing within the hour.



Cheers Jason =