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one Environment. why burn it?

I figure that given the current performance of motorcycles we can probably afford to stick a cat on road bikes. Bollocks to the cost.

They do it in cali for lots of bikes now, and it makes a lot of sense.

Now all we need to do is get them to force the same standard on SUVs.
 

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Yeah, well the AMA occasionally says the right thing, but they're no diferent from the carmakers on this, as the title implies. The current California bikes work fine, they're priced fine, and none of the disasters the AMA talks about have occurred. These proposed emissions standards can easily be met with existing technology without harming anyone.



Of course they should be making the SUV's and trucks and cars and DIESEL trucks comply with stricter rules as well. Scoots should be held to the same standard. Why not? It's everybody's air.



And enough with whining about how much bikes harm the air vs. SUV's, ATV's, cars, lawnmowers, snowblowers, etc. Almost all these things can be cleaned up without the drastic consequences everyone predicts. Our air and water is a hell of a lot cleaner since the first Clean Air and Water Act, and I don't see any manufacturers who went belly up from the burdensome costs of emissions cleanup.



This really pisses me off!! It's a no-brainer except for people without brains.
 

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The Toad
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I don't see any manufacturers who went belly up from the burdensome costs of emissions cleanup.



Naturally since, in reality, it is you the consumer who ultimately pays for everything. All costs are passed on to you.
 

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The only thing about all this that really busts my chops is that this is a classic example of targeting the "little guy"



We all know that if everyone rode motorcycles we'd burn less fuel, have less pollution, less traffic hassles, blah blah blah.



Unfortunately the big automakers bring with them the big lobbying bucks, which means SUV's are allowed to pollute in larger quantities than just about every other vehicle on the road because that's where the big money resides.



It's like trying to move an entire pile of rocks by concentrating on the pebbles (which are easy to move/regulate), rather than getting the boulders out of the way (more difficult to move/regulate). It's all terribly frustrating.
 

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That we sure do. The price was passed on to me with my Cat equiped BMW. Still lays down over 100 hp to the pavement, no complaints here...



Ive been on the fence as far as joining the AMA, rallying for more brown air isnt going to get my support I must admit.



Bring on the Fuel Cell bikes!!! Talk about smooth, no need for a counter balancer. Once we go to electric motors what is the twin vs. triple vs. 4 banger crowds going to argue about?
 

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The Toad
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That's the way it's always been, my friend.



Too bad that every other system of government is worse.
 

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Uh, you might want to re-take some of those college economics courses. It doesn't exactly work that way. Some costs do, others don't, it depends. After all, the market clearing price is the price where demand and supply meet. You know, price elasticity of demand (and supply), and all that.
 

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While I'm in favor of cleaner air, one problem caused by imposing stricter emissions standards across the board would be an increase in the price of entry level bikes targeted towards beginning riders with less disposable income. This may discourage some from starting to ride. One reason that I started riding was because bikes were much cheaper than cars. I might not be riding now if not for that. It's possible that raising the price of entry level bikes will lead to a decline of riders. I guess that would make the safety gestapo happy.
 

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Can't really get on board with the AMA on this one. Seems like a 'personal responsibility' issue, to borrow a phrase from those conservative paragons of personal virtue in Congress. Taking responsibility for the consequences of our actions. Like tailpipe emissions.



I can agree that from a public policy standpoint that coming down on motorcycles probably won't provide the biggest bang for the regulatory buck, but that's no reason to stonewall. Just because the SUV makers get away with it doesn't make it right.



Hey, does anyone remember when Detroit stonewalled on emission regs in the 60's and 70's, built cars that ran like crap and got lousy mileage, then the Japanese figured out how to combine tailpipe emissions, drivability and fuel mileage, stealing big chunks of market share from the big three in the process? Yep, stonewalling pays off in a big way!



Okay, okay, I've over-simplified a bit, but the principle is clear - these sort of regulatory issues create discontinuities that lead to competitive opportunities. Some manufacturers/nations are clever enough to take advantage of those opportunities, others stonewall.
 

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Why fight it?

The availability of bikes that meet CA 2008 standards at no increase in cost (in fact with 1500 dollar discounts) tends to show that the proposed regs are in line with current technology, and quite reasonable. The goal is worthy, so why not just go along?

When the regs are not reasonable, I'll be on the battle lines with the rest of you.
 

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Cry me a river...

Both europe (Euro 2004 and 2008) and CARB (2004 and 2008) standards are happening. There is really no sense in the US EPA not following CARB standards, as they are both effective and achievable.

EG, the VFR is CARB 2008 in a 50 state model, and the CBR-600-RR is CARB 2004 in the CA model.

Also, we are already to the point where fuel injection is effectively as cheap (if not cheaper) than carburators. So let the carborators dies.
 

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Re: Why fight it?

But those kinds of discounts don't apply to bikes like a Honda Rebel. The entry level bikes get more expensive, even after any discounts that may apply. On the otherhand, there is nothing wrong with requiring the RR954 to meet the regs (as it does).
 

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Re: Cry me a river...

Aww naw, if the carb dies, how will I play with my bike in the garage?? I can have some serious fun screwing up the jetting on my carbs any day of the week, but if I'm forced to use a computer program mated to a pwrcmdr then I am totally screwed. Plus, I don't own a laptop so I think my mom will be pretty ticked to come home and find the Tbird parked in the den (at least I can tell her Triumphs don't leak anymore:) Oh well.

I tend to agree with those who are willing to comply, however, I do worry about the aftermarket companies who make a living based on us ditching our stock pipes, etc...what about them?
 

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I figured out the problem...

The EPA is honked off about motorcycle emissions because they just found out the USMC is using diesel sludge to power their bikes.

EPA: "We want the truth on emissions"

USMC representative: "You can't handle the truth on emissions"

then those two marines who were secretly ordered to ride the diesel bikes are dishonorably discharged and the one doesn't understand why because he was just following orders. See, we better comply with the EPA, or it could get messy.
 

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Yeah, we need to clean the air, and I'm certain the manufacturers can meet the standards. However, I would also like all vehicles held to the same standard. Current car tests are done in percentage or PPM, which essentially means that a four liter engine can put out twice as much pollutants per mile as a two liter (assuming the same RPM). Let's see if they can build an SUV that meets the proposed motorcycle standard, which is on a per mile amount of emissions. That would mean that their six liter gas sucking sperm whales would need to have exhaust that's eight times as clean as a 750cc bike.



I am a little worried about the "Detroit line" on anything. Remember they claimed they couldn't meet emissions standards for decades. Honda managed it in two years.



Vlad
 
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