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Super Duper Mod Man
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"Most sportbikes arent offensively loud till above 6k rpm. Add in tall gearing and if they do romp on it they are about 3 blocks away within a few seconds."



You are kidding with the 6k rmp thing right? The race exhausts many put on are loud at a fast idle. And in a city area you are 3 blocks away from what? You are just annoying people a little farther away is all. Being loud is loud. Doesn't matter that you are pissing off people in a different area.





 

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The Toad
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17,461 Posts
In written comments submitted to the EPA on Nov. 20, the AMA also stressed that the proposed rules should continue to allow for the installation of after-market products, and allow owners to work on their own motorcycles.

This is the most worriesome thing in the article. How many here are aware that the EPA is actually proposing the outlawing of all owner maintenance? Yes, even oil changes. (Someone might throw their old oil in the landfill, so everyone must be punished.) You would be required by law to take your vehicle to an approved licensed maintenance facility.

They've even tried to outright ban all cars older than 1975. Fortunately a lot of congressmen and senators are themselves classic car owners and deep-sixed this one (for now).

Another proposal is to design the computers on cars to put the vehicle into a "limp mode" if any pollution parameters fall out of a narrow range. This means that if your check engine light comes on your car will suddenly be unable to go over about 50MPH and you will have to take it to a dealer immediately. In this case it could be a sensor has quit working, but the car is not actually polluting. A very common occurrence. So far the industry has dodged the bullet on this one, but the EPA never gives up.

The ultimate purpose is to put us all on buses. Then we untrustworthy subjects, er I mean citizens will be "safe" and free from "mischief".

Personal freedom makes governing a nation so difficult, doesn't it?
 

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Super Duper Mod Man
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10,479 Posts
We are the "little guy" because of our own doing. Large masses of unorganized individuals(motorcyclists) get stomped on. Large masses of organized individuals(gun owners & AARP) get their way. When you can bring money and voting clout to the table, you have an even chance at beating the BS regulations and laws that will directly affect your interests. In life you usually never get what you want, but what you deserve.
 

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The real point is fairness. You can divide the motoring public into small enough classes and declare that any one of them are "a drop in the bucket". Should Ford Excursion owners claim that their trucks are being unfairly regulated since they only contribute a tiny amount to nationwide pollution? Motorcycles are, per mile dirtier than cars. Sure there are fewer of them but so what?

As for your prediction that performance will fall someday, the only time that has happened was when the idea-bankrupt American auto industry did rediculously foolish things to their dinosaur 60's muscle cars to get them to pass emmissions standards designed to keep the population of LA and other similar cities alive. Foreign carmakers and eventually the Americans found effective solutions to make horsepower without wasting 1/2 the gas you put in the tank. Go drive a Vette or a 300zxtt and tell me how performance suffers so from the EPA.

 

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Super Duper Mod Man
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10,479 Posts
KPaul is right!

I just realized KPaul is right. Us "trailer trash" should just go along with the program and nod approvingly at all laws and regulations. Why fight it? Let's all live better together the government way! I'm sure if I turn in my guns, stop riding dangerous motorcycles, never exceed the speed limit, don't smoke, don't drink, eat only healthy foods, excercise every day, have safe sex, shun all movies or books with violence, sex, or bad language, and restrain myself from ever doing any dangerous or sinful acts I will live a happier and much more rewarding and fuller life. If I could be KPaul's neighbor, it would only add to the pleasure of said life. So if THIS scenario isn't reason enough for fighting for all you are worth, nothing is.
 

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Super Duper Mod Man
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10,479 Posts
Motorcycles solve traffic and transportation problems, as well as getting far superior gas mileage. Can the Ford Excursion owner say that? Didn't think so. Actually Ford Excursion owners CAN claim more resources used for mfg., more gas burned, more pollution spit out, more space taken for almost no real advantage than any other vehicle made. Most people have common sense to solve the big problems before the tiny ones. Lawn mowers and snow blowers pollute more in one hour than a car does all day. Any regulations on those? Why not? Because they aren't worth it. By your argument, they need to meet emissions. Cars and trucks are a much bigger problem. Fix that and the rest will be easy.



As for your performance argument, lets compare apples to apples. The 60's and 70's muscle cars could be bought and worked on by anyone. They were cheap, fast, easy to maintain and rebuildable. Your Corvette costs $60,000 and can only be worked on by a factory trained mechanic. the cars people can afford perform like shyt. That's why 60's muscle car prices are going through the roof. Affordable performance. End of story on that one. Don't you just love those $700 tune ups when they replace a couple "sensors" that go bad? I don't want a 2 wheeled car. If you do then go buy a GoldWing.
 

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I'm with you on this, even though (or maybe because of the fact that) I am probably one of the worst offenders.



My Ducati is far too loud for use in populated areas, and it is loud at all rpm. Fortunately, I live in a rural area far from any city, but I cringe when I do have to ride through a populated area.



I personally like the sound of loud pipes -- in an appropriate setting (drag strip, race track etc) -- whether on a built flathead ford, small-block Chevy, V12 Ferrarri, Harley or sportbike, but in the wrong setting, they just annoy people, make enemies and draw more attention from the police.



On my Ducati, it seems that much of the noise is actually intake noise -- the only way to get any power in the upper rpm range on the 2-valve Ducs (at least the carburated ones) is to remove the top of the airbox. Even with stock pipes, this made a huge increase in the noise level. Of course, the Ducati Performance full race exhaust system didn't exactly quiet things down much. Sure did help power though.



One "advantage" in my rural area -- the loud pipes seem to frighten the deer away. Maybe in this context, loud pipes DO save lives ;-)
 

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Gosh, you must be right. That degree in economics from a school with an notoriously conservative/monetarist point of view must have swept away all ability to think rationally, and left me a hapless stooge of the liberal press. Oh yeah, and I guess that MBA in strategy and competitive decision making was a complete waste of time, not to mention the years of private sector management experience. All of that trouble could have been avoided had I only read an ideologue like Sowell!



Oh wait, I did....
 

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Super Duper Mod Man
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10,479 Posts
I like the loud pipes too. I also can understand that the noise annoys people. Case in point. My old Harley has open pipes. My brother was riding it and pulled very slowly out of the driveway and down the street. the sound of him leaving was far from annoying. About half a block down he opened it up in a couple gears and that WAS annoying even from a large distance away. Case in point. It's not always the pipes that annoy, but the bonehead twisting the throttle!
 

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Re: Another reason why I shouldn't renew my membership.

Wow, Longride...

I always thought of costumed, mid-life, Harley riders as basically nice guys (if a little deluded about their own coolness quotient). You have made me aware of the extent to which at least some RUB Harley riders go beyond being merely somewhat dorky (in a humorous to the rest of us and genial way), and into the realm of being genuinely deluded and pitiable.

I assumed you just overstepped a little bit, making a sort of foolish comment (in the heat of the moment?). I thought a bit of teasing might bring you back into the fold of human decency.

Via your second comment, I now realize that you are (really and sincerely) just a puffed-up and self important - fool. You seem moderately capable of stringing words together, but surprisingly, your train of thought seems to be completely lacking an engine.

I won't bother to point out the self contradictory nature of your last two statements. However, I like to make the point that people who are less intelligent and/or members of a lower SES (than myself), are often tremendously more worthy human beings (than myself). To that end, I will bother to point out that you, are among the finest arguments that can be made for why education is not synonymous with intelligence (and further, why money is not synonymous with class).

On the off chance that you just experienced a burst of critical thinking, you might realize the apparent contradiction in my criticizing you for your complete lack of rhetorical ability (in the context of my criticizing people for looking down on the less gifted)... If you did realize that (which I would expect you didn't), you would be right, except for the following. Unlike you, I don't look down on people that aren't as smart as me. However, I gladly look down on people who are less smart but still manage to look down their nose at others.
 

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Re: Diesel Emissions

If the US would make available high-grade Diesel or Biodiesel, it wouldn't be difficult at all to bring Diesel emissions in line with gasoline emissions. The sad fact is that the Diesel fuel we have here pretty much sucks; Europe has both high-grade and biodiesel available.
 

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Selective Memory

I can go by a Civic Si, Nissan SeR or a multitude of other cars for under $20K, work on them all day long and there is a huge aftermarket for parts. I guess you're not to familiar with current automotive trends, but there are millions of kids out there building fast & fun cars on their own for not a lot of money.

As far as the cars today being worse than what they sold in the 60's & 70's that's one of the worst cases of selective memory ever. Luckily SpeedVision will periodically show old epidsodes of Motor Trend (actually it may be a different show, but they are there) and the road tests show cars that in now way perform better than cars today. They take longer to stop, the body rolls like they're at sea, and they weren't at all reliable. Every major satisfaction survey shows a greater satisfaction with autos today than in the past. But I'm sure you fondly remember a '69 Camero you owned that got you some tail once, so everything today sucks.

I'm positive that motorcycles can be built to perform and to lessen the environmental impact. I'm not sure I'm in favor of the EPA's proposed regulations, because I haven't read them for myself. But technological limitations aren't the problem.
 

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Longride, aside from first couple years, the 1970's thru early-mid 1980s "muscle" cars were PATHETIC. 1970's 160 HP automatic Corvettes, Mustang IIs, etc were poor excuses for what we call a "sports" or "muscle" car today. There was a huge HP reduction accross the board, between 1970 - 73 as emissions got tighter and tighter and the "Big 3" fumbled their way through cleaning up the cars of the day. It is obviously true that the adoption of federal emissions regulations killed the "muscle" car for about 15 years. However, when the manufacturers finally regained the enlightened path, they quickly surpassed anything offered in the 60s as far as specific output, reliability, emissions, etc. The hard work on emissions has already been done. Motorcycles will not suffer the same 15 years in the dark that the automobile did.





As far as modern sports cars are concerned, I have owned many of them (post OBD II) I worked on all of them myself, up to and including club racing an LT-4 Corvette and a 996 Carrera 2. They are indeed quite different than the 60's muscle cars, and they require some specialized equipment, but they are no less tunable or repairable. I use a laptop instead of a timing light, but cylinders, pistons, cams, heads, valves, intakes, etc are still 3-D parts and can still be held or tweaked by my greasy little hands.
 

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Super Duper Mod Man
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10,479 Posts
Re: Another reason why I shouldn't renew my membership.

I really don't give a rats A$$ what or who you look down upon "ol' chum". Call me out and you get what you pay for. Next time just say "kiss my a$$" and spare me all your literary and philisophical ma$turbation. Just giving back what you gave. Bye "ol' chum"
 

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Super Duper Mod Man
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10,479 Posts
You are right that todays cars can be made faster. You also would never be able to drive that car in Chicago because you could never meet emissions. You have to get a tag every 2 here and pass an emissions test. Club racing is fine, but the car is no longer street legal and the rules are getting tougher to get around all the time. We were talking about the average guy being able to have street performance for an affordable price. I hardly think a Porche Carrera fits that criteria.
 
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