Aprilia - Say it aint so!
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If I were a drop of gas I'd rather be burned in a Brutale than just about anything else.Re: again the HD faithfull refuse to admit that change is possible
I have a feeling that the Japanese will be in the same boat the Brits were in the late '60s once the Chinese drop down the learning curve a bit. There can be only one low cost producer and I don't see anyone doing that better than China. There rest must compete on quality, service or some perceived blend of both. Makes Harley look all the smarter. Carve a niche and circle the wagons. Let the tariff wars begin.
I have a feeling that the Japanese will be in the same boat the Brits were in the late '60s once the Chinese drop down the learning curve a bit. There can be only one low cost producer and I don't see anyone doing that better than China. There rest must compete on quality, service or some perceived blend of both. Makes Harley look all the smarter. Carve a niche and circle the wagons. Let the tariff wars begin.
KPaul the Great Motorcycle Prophet speaks
[*]Japan continues quality management which is why in the long run they win.
[*]Americans got the quality religon then quit, because it s tough and requires too many changes in management mindset[*] Now the fad is for US companies is to be integrators not a manufacturers. i.e. outsource (offshore) the design, parts and then assembly it in the U.S. This why we are losing manufacturing jobs at a record rate.
[*]Japan continues quality management which is why in the long run they win.
[*]Americans got the quality religon then quit, because it s tough and requires too many changes in management mindset[*] Now the fad is for US companies is to be integrators not a manufacturers. i.e. outsource (offshore) the design, parts and then assembly it in the U.S. This why we are losing manufacturing jobs at a record rate.
Rotax actually has a long history...
KTM has used a lot of rotax engines, the F650 bimmers were also a rotax single. I believe the 650 Pegassio (aprillia) was also the same engine. A large part of Rotax's entire business model is designing engines for other people.
Also, rotax is GOING to want an excuse to develop a 600cc-1L I3, I4, or narrow-angle V4. As a result, they would probably sell it reasonably cheaply if a big company (say Buell if we can dream, BMW if they ever want to do a REAL sportbike rather than a heavy busa-clone) would come up to the plate with a serious offer.
This is because although rotax has no presence in the complete motorcycle business, as Bombadier (the snowmobile division) and SeaDoo (the JetSki division) are both smarting from the emisions regulations. 2-strokes are getting pretty well banned for both snowmoblie and jetski use in large areas.
It's been these emission regs which has allowed both Yamaha (jetski and snowmobile powered by an R1 derived lump) and Honda (jetski with one-off tripple), and Kawasaki to inflate its lead (jetski with ZX12R derived engine).
The Japanese have also gotten into the game, selling engines. Suzuki has sold 650 and 1000 V-twins (SV650/TL1000 engines) to Cagiva, and there was talk (but I think it died) of the Gileria 600cc powered by a GSXR-6k engine.
Likewise, Honda is selling RC51 engines to Mondial (Mondial Piega) and the new Vincent
KTM has used a lot of rotax engines, the F650 bimmers were also a rotax single. I believe the 650 Pegassio (aprillia) was also the same engine. A large part of Rotax's entire business model is designing engines for other people.
Also, rotax is GOING to want an excuse to develop a 600cc-1L I3, I4, or narrow-angle V4. As a result, they would probably sell it reasonably cheaply if a big company (say Buell if we can dream, BMW if they ever want to do a REAL sportbike rather than a heavy busa-clone) would come up to the plate with a serious offer.
This is because although rotax has no presence in the complete motorcycle business, as Bombadier (the snowmobile division) and SeaDoo (the JetSki division) are both smarting from the emisions regulations. 2-strokes are getting pretty well banned for both snowmoblie and jetski use in large areas.
It's been these emission regs which has allowed both Yamaha (jetski and snowmobile powered by an R1 derived lump) and Honda (jetski with one-off tripple), and Kawasaki to inflate its lead (jetski with ZX12R derived engine).
The Japanese have also gotten into the game, selling engines. Suzuki has sold 650 and 1000 V-twins (SV650/TL1000 engines) to Cagiva, and there was talk (but I think it died) of the Gileria 600cc powered by a GSXR-6k engine.
Likewise, Honda is selling RC51 engines to Mondial (Mondial Piega) and the new Vincent
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Opinions again are not fact. As far as start up sport bike companies, Buell comes to mind afew years ago, Vincent and Norton now. I also don't see the cruiser start ups cranking out the products. More so than sport bikes, yes. The cult following cruisers have is a big draw to base sales off of. But even with that advantage very few of the cruiser (HD knock offs) companies are rolling in money, most seem to be barely making it. So sport bikes don't make profits, Triumph had been increasingly profitable untill the fire last year.
"There are not any financial statements from the Big Four that breaks down by catagory. If you ever looked at one you would know that."
Yes I have looked at financial statements (I hate doing it, but it is required in todays world), thats how I know there are no facts backing up your opinion on sport bike profits (thanks again for helping to make my point ;-)
Again, please try to get some facts to back up your opinions.
Its a dead horse catagory for the two of us, we have beaten it down to the ground. But, if you do ever find something published that talks about this issue please feel free to let us MO-rons know about it. Thanks again.
"There are not any financial statements from the Big Four that breaks down by catagory. If you ever looked at one you would know that."
Yes I have looked at financial statements (I hate doing it, but it is required in todays world), thats how I know there are no facts backing up your opinion on sport bike profits (thanks again for helping to make my point ;-)
Again, please try to get some facts to back up your opinions.
Its a dead horse catagory for the two of us, we have beaten it down to the ground. But, if you do ever find something published that talks about this issue please feel free to let us MO-rons know about it. Thanks again.
Just to point out, Buell was not a start-up sportbike company. They were financed by Harley-Davidson and run by Eric. Harley now owns them again. I wonder how long Buell would have survived without Harley cash? About 5 minutes is my guess. To use Norton and Vincent as supposed sport bike companies is a pretty bad reach. Neither one makes sport bikes, nor are considered successful. Nice try. Triumph cruisers are their biggest sellers by far. That is proven through numbers. How much money did they make on the 600, and when was the last re-design of the Daytona? Where is the race team? Sportbikes are supposed to race, right? Triumph better stick with what they know before they go on the auction block next. Sportbike startups that compete with Japanese sportbikes are hen's teeth. Keep pretending money is being made in sport bikes, if it makes you feel better. Reality says different.
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3,415 Posts
Re: again the HD faithfull refuse to admit that change is possible
There ya' go kpaul, sensible advice from some plank-owner GPTB types.
The progression for us GPTB type rider's is standard that you turned into a cafe` racer, then HD chopper that you built yourself, then Sportsters 'cause they're so much fun, then bagger, then factory built sportbike, then sport-tourer then, stock HD, then nekkid hooligan Speed Triple, then sport tourer, then sexy Italian sportbike that ruins whats left of your joints, then cruiser. You don't have to sell one bike to buy another, just add on to the garage.
I'm working my way through list, on "sport-tourer" at the moment.
There ya' go kpaul, sensible advice from some plank-owner GPTB types.
The progression for us GPTB type rider's is standard that you turned into a cafe` racer, then HD chopper that you built yourself, then Sportsters 'cause they're so much fun, then bagger, then factory built sportbike, then sport-tourer then, stock HD, then nekkid hooligan Speed Triple, then sport tourer, then sexy Italian sportbike that ruins whats left of your joints, then cruiser. You don't have to sell one bike to buy another, just add on to the garage.
I'm working my way through list, on "sport-tourer" at the moment.
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3,415 Posts
Todays Tacoma paper had a listing of overall new vehicale quality, the Hummer was last. Not only are they pretentious gas hogs, they're unreliable junk to boot. All that and more for $50k + tax.
I'm glad I bought a mini-van instead of a Yukon Denali or Expedition like I wanted...
I'm glad I bought a mini-van instead of a Yukon Denali or Expedition like I wanted...
Blowing smoke?
$22 in debt for each $1 in real equity?
Assets $300,000 MILLION (only $7,000 Million of which is Goodwill)
Liabilities $286,000 Million
If you know about "secret" $3 TRILLION in debt that Ford's hiding from Wallstreet, I'm sure a lot of people would like to know.
$22 in debt for each $1 in real equity?
Assets $300,000 MILLION (only $7,000 Million of which is Goodwill)
Liabilities $286,000 Million
If you know about "secret" $3 TRILLION in debt that Ford's hiding from Wallstreet, I'm sure a lot of people would like to know.
Re: again the HD faithfull refuse to admit that change is possible
Except that it isn't ALL about price. If you want a really cheap ride there are plenty of Kimcos and Royal Enfields out there already. Unless they produce an inexpensive bike that is reasonably comparable to the Big Four in performance and build quality, the Chinese will have a tough time muscling in on Japan's turf.
Not that it can't be done, though. Look at the strides Korean car makers have made in the past two years. They used to be just cheap, and they weren't taken seriously by other manufacturers. Now they're cheap and fairly decent, and the other manufacturers are worried about the future of their market shares.
Except that it isn't ALL about price. If you want a really cheap ride there are plenty of Kimcos and Royal Enfields out there already. Unless they produce an inexpensive bike that is reasonably comparable to the Big Four in performance and build quality, the Chinese will have a tough time muscling in on Japan's turf.
Not that it can't be done, though. Look at the strides Korean car makers have made in the past two years. They used to be just cheap, and they weren't taken seriously by other manufacturers. Now they're cheap and fairly decent, and the other manufacturers are worried about the future of their market shares.
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Bruno Taglifiera (?) stated as much in a recent issue of Brit mag. Performance Bike. Because of increased legislation and tightening sportbike market in Europe, Triumph was going to shift their emphasis to the classic and cruiser lines. Their soon to be released Rocket 111 and Thruxton are already major sellers. Triumph is smart enough to put their R&D money where it does the most good, not try to chase a rabbit down a hole competing with the Japanese
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