I have taken my XB9R to 8 track days ( about 1,000 miles of track time). The bike has been bullet proof. Coming out of the corners my bike can hang with the 600cc rockets, however, once over 90MPH they pull away. It all comes down to rider ability, my lap times are the same or faster then many individuals on 600 or even 1000 cc sportbikes from the big four. Other riders just smoke me so I could be riding a faster bike and still go slower than them. I'm not the fastest rider out there however, I still have a lot of guys with faster bikes coming up and commenting that they could not believe a Buell can be that fast.
Buell VS Other Sport Bike Real World Experiences
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It's all the rider for sure
JohnBranXB9R has it spot on by saying it's all the individual, especially at the track. I do 2 or more track days a month during the season and it really doesn't matter what you're on. There are expert-license racers riding SV-650's that will smoke a novice on a full-factory Superbike - TRUTH.
I just did a VIR Full Course track day and an expert-level racer riding a BMW R1100S Boxer Cup SMOKED most of the racer group - full race GSX-R 750s, R6's - you name it. This is 3.27 mile course with 3 fast straights, and his BMW weighs almost 500 pounds and only puts out about 100HP to the rear wheel!
So, the moral is that a good rider on ANY Buell, let alone one tricked out enough to be on paper a match for 600's, could smoke a mediocre rider on anything else.
That said, I'm sure the XB12S is a FINE streetbike that without too much modification will keep up with ANYTHING on a twisty road. You answered your question about who is going to be up front on the street with "who ever is the craziest" will likely be first, and the first to get creamed too!
JohnBranXB9R has it spot on by saying it's all the individual, especially at the track. I do 2 or more track days a month during the season and it really doesn't matter what you're on. There are expert-license racers riding SV-650's that will smoke a novice on a full-factory Superbike - TRUTH.
I just did a VIR Full Course track day and an expert-level racer riding a BMW R1100S Boxer Cup SMOKED most of the racer group - full race GSX-R 750s, R6's - you name it. This is 3.27 mile course with 3 fast straights, and his BMW weighs almost 500 pounds and only puts out about 100HP to the rear wheel!
So, the moral is that a good rider on ANY Buell, let alone one tricked out enough to be on paper a match for 600's, could smoke a mediocre rider on anything else.
That said, I'm sure the XB12S is a FINE streetbike that without too much modification will keep up with ANYTHING on a twisty road. You answered your question about who is going to be up front on the street with "who ever is the craziest" will likely be first, and the first to get creamed too!
I've rode sport bikes since 92. I can't see where you can say that the buell has the edge when it comes to being "not stock". The fact is a lot of sport bikes are the same as the ones that race except they have to conform to EPA and be street legal. I have owned two Buells, a 99 M2, and now a S3 Thunderbolt. My S3 does have some extra's, but in the top end the rice rockets will kick my butt. I had a 99 Hayabusa too, until it was ripped off. After riding that, nothing else compares when it comes to all out power. So it's hard to compare the two, with maybe the exception of a RC51 or a Duc 996. As far as handling, the Buell is great. My S3 has been dynoed at 97HP at the rear wheel, and 100lbs plus of torque. I don't have the top end, but I love the torque and having the power where I need it, and that is day to day riding. When you put it into gear it's in it's powerband, I could pull tree stumps out with my Buell. I intend to go up the food chain and max out my engine with hotter cams and punch it up to 1230. I guess that is one thing I do like, being a Harley engine there is so much you can do to it. When I ride with my sport bike friends it really comes down to the rider and who has the biggest b***s. I can hang with them in the twisties and out do them because of the torque factor. I have a friend who has a Duc 900M who is in the same boat, little slower in the straights but outride them or stay up with them in the curves. Sorry, didn't mean to ramble.
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I blew by a GSX-R1000 at deals gap on my stockish 2000 M2 Cyclone. Of course, the guy with me blew by me, and he was on a Honda XR-650 (single cylinder air cooled dual sport, maybe 40 RWHP on a good day).
It's the rider. (and the one on the aforementioned GSXR-1000 had no business on that bike, but at least he was being safe). Right behind rider skills is willingness to take unacceptable risks. Behind that is probably how much money you are willing to spend on rubber. Behind *that* is probably when actual engine comes into play.
Of course drag races are a different story... but a really good drag bike will have to be lowered and stretched and cammed to the moon to get the really good times, which would make it dull in the twisties. If drag race times are your quality criteria, then you consider a VMax and a VRod a sportbike, right?
Peak horsepower is a lousy metric for bike performance unless you want to be constantly shifting. It's the area under the full horsepower curve that makes for a good street bike, and what the curve looks like at the RPM's where you actually like to ride.
I have not seen the XB12 dyno charts yet, but with that new exhaust setup I think they will be fantastic... decent power everywhere, and it will probably pull hard right up through 120.
Just personal opinion, but I don't understand why anyone is riding on the street at speeds over 90 in the first place, much less running competitively at that speed. Too many safety unknowns, too many cops waiting to impound bikes, too much money to be spent on insurance after picking up that kind of ticket...
I just don't see it as a "sustainable" mode of motorcycling, and am Glad Buell is not selling out the 0-90 performance to get only marginally better top end. This approach is not for everyone, but it makes sense for me. I love the fact that I can take my Cyclone out on superslab and have a comfortable, stable, and smooth ride for as long as I want, then dive into whatever twisties I can find and choose whatever line I want. I shift if I want too, not because I have too.
What was it Erik Buell said in an interview?... something along the lines of "we build a bike for serious riders, not something for some adolescent to use scare the crap out of themselves once a year".
It probably comes down to "do you want a bike built for the track and made street legal", or "do you want a bike built for the street that can be built up for the track".
Track bikes can get away with more unsprung weight (even the worst tracks are far better then any street you will ride on), hotter cams (which give mondo top end but lousy bottom and middle) and a high power per cc ratio (which is a great advantage within your race class, but is a stupid limitation to burden yourself with on the street). They have more expensive and monotonous plastic thats always in the way (better aerodynamics gives better terminal velocities when into the triple digits).
Picture something like the FZ1, but instead of making it a "cheap R1", what if Yamaha had kept premium components, but designed them for the road instead of the track. They could have played with the wheelbase (it does not need to be stable at 170mph), removed a front rotor (lower unsprung weight so you can brake faster on crappy roads, and one big rotor is enough when you are not going from 120 - 25 - 100 - 30 - 120 - 40 every 1 minute 73 seconds). Kept the premium R1 suspension but built in a little extra travel... etc. Yamaha did get the seating position and the engine cams right. Suzuki came pretty close with the VStrom as well, but they annoyingly keep wanting to build "another TL1000", and keep t he wheelbase too long.
And the Buells "sound right"
IMHO Really. I understand why other people like the race replicas, and even why peple like Harleys and VMax's. I am just explaining why the Buells work so well for me.
It's the rider. (and the one on the aforementioned GSXR-1000 had no business on that bike, but at least he was being safe). Right behind rider skills is willingness to take unacceptable risks. Behind that is probably how much money you are willing to spend on rubber. Behind *that* is probably when actual engine comes into play.
Of course drag races are a different story... but a really good drag bike will have to be lowered and stretched and cammed to the moon to get the really good times, which would make it dull in the twisties. If drag race times are your quality criteria, then you consider a VMax and a VRod a sportbike, right?
Peak horsepower is a lousy metric for bike performance unless you want to be constantly shifting. It's the area under the full horsepower curve that makes for a good street bike, and what the curve looks like at the RPM's where you actually like to ride.
I have not seen the XB12 dyno charts yet, but with that new exhaust setup I think they will be fantastic... decent power everywhere, and it will probably pull hard right up through 120.
Just personal opinion, but I don't understand why anyone is riding on the street at speeds over 90 in the first place, much less running competitively at that speed. Too many safety unknowns, too many cops waiting to impound bikes, too much money to be spent on insurance after picking up that kind of ticket...
I just don't see it as a "sustainable" mode of motorcycling, and am Glad Buell is not selling out the 0-90 performance to get only marginally better top end. This approach is not for everyone, but it makes sense for me. I love the fact that I can take my Cyclone out on superslab and have a comfortable, stable, and smooth ride for as long as I want, then dive into whatever twisties I can find and choose whatever line I want. I shift if I want too, not because I have too.
What was it Erik Buell said in an interview?... something along the lines of "we build a bike for serious riders, not something for some adolescent to use scare the crap out of themselves once a year".
It probably comes down to "do you want a bike built for the track and made street legal", or "do you want a bike built for the street that can be built up for the track".
Track bikes can get away with more unsprung weight (even the worst tracks are far better then any street you will ride on), hotter cams (which give mondo top end but lousy bottom and middle) and a high power per cc ratio (which is a great advantage within your race class, but is a stupid limitation to burden yourself with on the street). They have more expensive and monotonous plastic thats always in the way (better aerodynamics gives better terminal velocities when into the triple digits).
Picture something like the FZ1, but instead of making it a "cheap R1", what if Yamaha had kept premium components, but designed them for the road instead of the track. They could have played with the wheelbase (it does not need to be stable at 170mph), removed a front rotor (lower unsprung weight so you can brake faster on crappy roads, and one big rotor is enough when you are not going from 120 - 25 - 100 - 30 - 120 - 40 every 1 minute 73 seconds). Kept the premium R1 suspension but built in a little extra travel... etc. Yamaha did get the seating position and the engine cams right. Suzuki came pretty close with the VStrom as well, but they annoyingly keep wanting to build "another TL1000", and keep t he wheelbase too long.
And the Buells "sound right"
IMHO
Really. I understand why other people like the race replicas, and even why peple like Harleys and VMax's. I am just explaining why the Buells work so well for me.I live in the Omaha, Nebraska metropolitan area and there are mostly Harleys but also a lot of sport bikes to be seen. I'm sure some crazy riding goes on now and then but it certainly is not prevelant around these parts and I don't read much about it in the papers, if ever. We went to that 2 Fast 2 Furious movie yesterday at the $1.50 a ticket theater and it was entertaining. I only bring this up because I cringed at the crazy malicious driving in this movie. Now if everytime I went out on the road I had to contend with sport bike riders endangering everybody on the road I imagine they'd out law those type of bikes. Most of this style of riding at high speeds must be done on tracks. If this is the case then why sell high rpm, peak hp machines for the road when lower rpm, high torque bikes are so much better suited for the highway? The torque machines get better mileage taboot. Maybe I'm just getting old. When I was in my teens and twenties they didn't even have sport bikes, just standards. I'm 47. I once road up to an indicated 130mph on a Honda 1100F and this was in Iowa so I didn't have on a helmet and my cheeks were flapping behind my ears. I ride a Harley and have never even seen 90 on in it and that's ok by me since it probably would not be good on it or handle to well at that speed. I'm heading to Sturgis on Wednesday and I'm hoping to ride a XB12R and S at the demos if they have them there. If not, I'll settle for the XB9S since I've already demo'd the 9R. I'll give ya'll my impressions from a non-sport bike riding kind of guy.
Not Being Stock
What I meant is I see a lot of other Non-Buell bikes stock with maybe a pipe at most.
But... almost every Buell you see on the street has many changes, example; many have high a performance intake, electronic control module, muffler, etc. Also, it's not uncommon to see a big bore kit or higher performance cams, pistons, etc. We even have a M2 Cyclone in the area with a turbo! So in essence the stock Buell that the magazines test rarely exists on the street.
What I meant is I see a lot of other Non-Buell bikes stock with maybe a pipe at most.
But... almost every Buell you see on the street has many changes, example; many have high a performance intake, electronic control module, muffler, etc. Also, it's not uncommon to see a big bore kit or higher performance cams, pistons, etc. We even have a M2 Cyclone in the area with a turbo! So in essence the stock Buell that the magazines test rarely exists on the street.
Heck, I ride a 1977 Guzzi LeMans-my main riding partner has a GSXR 1000 (01) and we arrive at our destination at the same time.
Of course he can fly by me on any straight-I don't think he can tell when I get on it unless I tell him afterward-but on twisty roads, we're together. There is no way you can use the extra tire of a modern bike to pull away from anything else without using up all of your margin. You do leave a margin of safety on the street, right? The width of that margin determines who is fastest, and if things don't go well, will determine who survives.
Of course he can fly by me on any straight-I don't think he can tell when I get on it unless I tell him afterward-but on twisty roads, we're together. There is no way you can use the extra tire of a modern bike to pull away from anything else without using up all of your margin. You do leave a margin of safety on the street, right? The width of that margin determines who is fastest, and if things don't go well, will determine who survives.
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I was already there, they don't have the XB12, either of them. I demoed the XB9S and that was a hoot, except for the lead and chase bikes. The Screaming Eagle Deuce is very overrated, I couldn't stand the 5 miles I had it on the interstate my hands were so numb. And the V-Rod I rode had a nasty wobble at speed and zero torque below 4 grand. I think my Magna has better top gear roll on times.
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2,752 Posts
It is great to hear about new found quality of the new Buells. I demoed a Cyclone over a year ago. At idle the shaking was distracting. Once the bike was going the shaking settled down. I loved the sound and the low end torque was great.
The new 1200 motor is a step in the right direction, although most of us couldn't push the 9R to its limits on the street. Since most of us don't spend 90% our time on the track that's great. The two year warranty was great move. I am still keeping a wait and see attititude. Once I am sure Buell has solved the reliability problem I going to demo a black 12R. I love the looks of the new Buells and I appreciate Eric Buell's commitment to improve quality and reliability. The old Buells were like bad girls tempting your soul. But the new Buells may be the girl you take home.
However, because racing involves speed above 110 mph, I still think twins are dead in racing. But that's OK. For the rest of us maybe a V-Twin is just right for the Sunday morning ride. It's great to see an American alternative.
The new 1200 motor is a step in the right direction, although most of us couldn't push the 9R to its limits on the street. Since most of us don't spend 90% our time on the track that's great. The two year warranty was great move. I am still keeping a wait and see attititude. Once I am sure Buell has solved the reliability problem I going to demo a black 12R. I love the looks of the new Buells and I appreciate Eric Buell's commitment to improve quality and reliability. The old Buells were like bad girls tempting your soul. But the new Buells may be the girl you take home.
However, because racing involves speed above 110 mph, I still think twins are dead in racing. But that's OK. For the rest of us maybe a V-Twin is just right for the Sunday morning ride. It's great to see an American alternative.
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On the verge of conversion?
Na it's OK after being smoked by a few riders on "inferior" bikes to my Ninja, I totally agree. My favorite road has speed limit of 40. I am sure the Buell Firebolt would be a fun ride on this road. The low end torque would be fun to use. My Ninja I keep reved up 7000+ on this road. I would never go past 100 on the street so the Buell limits is really no concern to the average rider.
In addition the lower maintenance costs of the Buell have to be considered. Self adjusting valves and fuel injection are I am sure cheaper to my 8000 mi valve checks and carb synchros. I would love to have a bike that all I had to do was change the oil and check the spark plug once in while.
Na it's OK after being smoked by a few riders on "inferior" bikes to my Ninja, I totally agree. My favorite road has speed limit of 40. I am sure the Buell Firebolt would be a fun ride on this road. The low end torque would be fun to use. My Ninja I keep reved up 7000+ on this road. I would never go past 100 on the street so the Buell limits is really no concern to the average rider.
In addition the lower maintenance costs of the Buell have to be considered. Self adjusting valves and fuel injection are I am sure cheaper to my 8000 mi valve checks and carb synchros. I would love to have a bike that all I had to do was change the oil and check the spark plug once in while.
I don't think Buells are designed to be stupid fast. There is a point where a sport bike no longer functions properly on public highways.
I don't think Buell is interested in putting out a track bike that can be used on the street but rather a street bike that could be used on the track if so desired. It's a focused machine. The focus is the street. Thats where most of us ride. With most top of the line sport bikes the focus is the track.
I don't think Buell is interested in putting out a track bike that can be used on the street but rather a street bike that could be used on the track if so desired. It's a focused machine. The focus is the street. Thats where most of us ride. With most top of the line sport bikes the focus is the track.
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Grey Ponytailed Poseurhood?
Ha ha ha. I saw that movie at the dollar theatre last night too. Man that was a horrible movie.
I'm not so sure about your claim that the torquier bikes get better highway mileage. Though, in my admittedly unscientific study of the situation there are a lot of unresolved variables. I have a '02 Yamaha Warrior and it gets fairly lousy mileage (28 - 32 mpg) whereas most of my friends who ride I-4 sportbikes get closer to 45 mpg.
Obviously, the factors of throttle heavyhandedness, fairings, time spent on the freeway and what speed travelled are not taken into consideration here, this is mostly a straw poll set of numbers. Overall displacement has a factor too; I probably shouldn't be hoping for too much from a pushrod, aircooled, 1700cc twin in the mileage department.
-Kawazuki
I'm not so sure about your claim that the torquier bikes get better highway mileage. Though, in my admittedly unscientific study of the situation there are a lot of unresolved variables. I have a '02 Yamaha Warrior and it gets fairly lousy mileage (28 - 32 mpg) whereas most of my friends who ride I-4 sportbikes get closer to 45 mpg.
Obviously, the factors of throttle heavyhandedness, fairings, time spent on the freeway and what speed travelled are not taken into consideration here, this is mostly a straw poll set of numbers. Overall displacement has a factor too; I probably shouldn't be hoping for too much from a pushrod, aircooled, 1700cc twin in the mileage department.
-Kawazuki
More New Info on Power and Reliability
Just looked at, heaven forbid one of the new paper mags on the news stands and found some interesting information.
Power: Apparently word is leaking out that the XB12's are putting out 93 to 95 rear wheel horsepower on dyno tests and that the 103 at the crank is a very conservative statement. Also both bikes have at least a 140-mph top end. Only time will tell but I'm hoping that at last we will have a bike from Buell that will circle the shorter tighter "Streets Of Willow Springs" about as fast any bike.
Reliability: Word is out also that of the lead Buell engineer's goals was to make the new XB12's the most reliable bike on the planet. The new Buell bikes were pushed along with other makes to failure and the Buell's were lasting longer. Only time will tell.
Just looked at, heaven forbid one of the new paper mags on the news stands and found some interesting information.
Power: Apparently word is leaking out that the XB12's are putting out 93 to 95 rear wheel horsepower on dyno tests and that the 103 at the crank is a very conservative statement. Also both bikes have at least a 140-mph top end. Only time will tell but I'm hoping that at last we will have a bike from Buell that will circle the shorter tighter "Streets Of Willow Springs" about as fast any bike.
Reliability: Word is out also that of the lead Buell engineer's goals was to make the new XB12's the most reliable bike on the planet. The new Buell bikes were pushed along with other makes to failure and the Buell's were lasting longer. Only time will tell.
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