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729 Posts
I think that Buells are very cool. I liked the XB9 so much after I rode it that I almost bought one. They are great bikes, IMO.
BUELLS NOT BAD EH?
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I, I don't understand... where are all the Buell ****ters this morning? them what poo-poo the Buell? oddly quiet. I think Barnes is like 63 years old, too. I bet Duhamel makes more in a week than Barney has made in his career. I bet the Buells live in an Econoline van. Mwhahahahahahaaa...
OK I'll bite, Why Buell still has a way to go?
Daytona DNF, Fontana DNF ? Also, Isn't Sears Pt. a track that would favor the Buell i..e the 600 times are close to the Superbike times due to short straights and tight curves. Is the Big Firebolt too big according to the rules?
Daytona DNF, Fontana DNF ? Also, Isn't Sears Pt. a track that would favor the Buell i..e the 600 times are close to the Superbike times due to short straights and tight curves. Is the Big Firebolt too big according to the rules?
Re: And another thing, let's play what if? 8th place becomes 18th
kpaul i thought you were my friend man... point is if buell is that out-of-the-hunt with current 600sas so many people on this forum contendit's pretty cool that Barney beat up about 20 of them in a heads-up battle on a track that's much closer to real-world riding than someplace like Daytona, which is totally horsepower-dependent. Cicotto too. Pls don't confuse me with details, i am big picture guy...
kpaul i thought you were my friend man... point is if buell is that out-of-the-hunt with current 600sas so many people on this forum contendit's pretty cool that Barney beat up about 20 of them in a heads-up battle on a track that's much closer to real-world riding than someplace like Daytona, which is totally horsepower-dependent. Cicotto too. Pls don't confuse me with details, i am big picture guy...
A: Sears point now has some really tight bits, such as a 90/90 chicane at turn 9. VERY cool place, lots of action happens there. This is a big advantage for the Buell, as the bikes have to radically slow down on what would have otherwise been a "leave em behind" near-straightaway.
ALso, the buells effectively have a speed sensitive damper with the front brake setup (if it isn't changed), thus by the slowdown for the chicane, the damper is "off". A very clever design.
B: Just imagine what those Buell chassis could do with a 600 supersport class engine! Remember, they have almost double the engine displacement (and a big weight penalty for that engine/transmisson). Just think about what they could do with a real engine/transmission...
C: Do the buells have different(easier) exhaust regulations? They are the only bikes you can hear from the other side of the track. The supersport ducatis are quieter, by a lot!
ALso, the buells effectively have a speed sensitive damper with the front brake setup (if it isn't changed), thus by the slowdown for the chicane, the damper is "off". A very clever design.
B: Just imagine what those Buell chassis could do with a 600 supersport class engine! Remember, they have almost double the engine displacement (and a big weight penalty for that engine/transmisson). Just think about what they could do with a real engine/transmission...
C: Do the buells have different(easier) exhaust regulations? They are the only bikes you can hear from the other side of the track. The supersport ducatis are quieter, by a lot!
Joined
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1,521 Posts
What, are we celebrating here that some particular brand got 8th and 11th in a race? I can feel the emotion growing.
- cruiz-euro
- cruiz-euro
Re: And another thing, let's play what if? 8th place becomes 18th
"Pls don't confuse me with details, i am big picture guy..." Right that's what my bosses say to me all the time. Nope I agree with you on your big picture. At least there is competition now between the inline 4s and the Aircooled twin we can talk about
"Pls don't confuse me with details, i am big picture guy..." Right that's what my bosses say to me all the time. Nope I agree with you on your big picture. At least there is competition now between the inline 4s and the Aircooled twin we can talk about
Engine, Engine, number (XB) 9
Those little suckers can twist and turn, and nobody seems to be denying that, yet we all seem to have one question: "where's the motor?"
All brand-bashing aside, the old 45deg twin in there performs admirably for its age, and certainly isn't the sporty-motor of old. That said, it's way, way down on everything.
Has anyone ever heard of someone cramming a Rotax or something in a Buell?
'Old designs' like pushrods can work pretty darned well; in the Cage world, look at the venerable small Chevy engine, now in its third major generation. They briefly went to DOHC in their highest bracket (LT4 motor in certain '90's Corvettes); but returned to Pushrods. Nobody questions the dominance that a pushrod v-8 achieved in the C5-R's (the Le Mans Corvette).
But other than the basics of bore, stroke, and valvetrain type, a new small chevy is NOTHING like a '65. These guys are friction-saving, tight-clearanced, all-aluminum block, sodium-filled valved, etc, etc.
I'm not saying Buell should ditch the harley-type motor any more than Ducati should switch to inline fours; 'character' is sometimes worth horsepower in the real world. But a little ... daring R&D goes a long way.
---
The other side of the coin: the machinery and research used to build those engines is already depreciated. R&D is expensive. Harley seems to be doing something right as far as making money goes. Ducati, on the other hand...
Of course, at $1.20something to the Euro, it's hard to buy them anyway and.... oh, I'll stop.
Those little suckers can twist and turn, and nobody seems to be denying that, yet we all seem to have one question: "where's the motor?"
All brand-bashing aside, the old 45deg twin in there performs admirably for its age, and certainly isn't the sporty-motor of old. That said, it's way, way down on everything.
Has anyone ever heard of someone cramming a Rotax or something in a Buell?
'Old designs' like pushrods can work pretty darned well; in the Cage world, look at the venerable small Chevy engine, now in its third major generation. They briefly went to DOHC in their highest bracket (LT4 motor in certain '90's Corvettes); but returned to Pushrods. Nobody questions the dominance that a pushrod v-8 achieved in the C5-R's (the Le Mans Corvette).
But other than the basics of bore, stroke, and valvetrain type, a new small chevy is NOTHING like a '65. These guys are friction-saving, tight-clearanced, all-aluminum block, sodium-filled valved, etc, etc.
I'm not saying Buell should ditch the harley-type motor any more than Ducati should switch to inline fours; 'character' is sometimes worth horsepower in the real world. But a little ... daring R&D goes a long way.
---
The other side of the coin: the machinery and research used to build those engines is already depreciated. R&D is expensive. Harley seems to be doing something right as far as making money goes. Ducati, on the other hand...
Of course, at $1.20something to the Euro, it's hard to buy them anyway and.... oh, I'll stop.
Re: Engine, Engine, number (XB) 9
Right, it is so "down on everything" that it beat like 20-some inline four late-model japanese bikes. I think it's only the ENTIRE POINT you seem to be overlooking. On a tight track like Sears (or most fun roads) the low-rpm urge off the corners is exactly why the Buell did well. And the fact it can turn inside any of those bikes thanks to super-stub advanced chassis.
Right, it is so "down on everything" that it beat like 20-some inline four late-model japanese bikes. I think it's only the ENTIRE POINT you seem to be overlooking. On a tight track like Sears (or most fun roads) the low-rpm urge off the corners is exactly why the Buell did well. And the fact it can turn inside any of those bikes thanks to super-stub advanced chassis.
Couple more bits...
Remember, formula xtreme is pretty much anything goes mod-wise, with Buell probably giving lots of support but most of the japanese manufacturers just not caring as much (Supersport and Superbike are more important).
I did a demoride on the buells while at the races (both the 12R and 12S). ICK ICK ICK. The tuono was the same thing but so much nicer.
It's amazing the myth of torque (and HP for that matter), waht counts is the trust curve for each gear. With the Buell's only having a revv range from 2.5k to about 6k/6.5k RPM, compared with 3k to 11k for the Italian, the Buell's engine was less flexible for lazy road riding (although the tuono was geared too high, IMO)
Remember, formula xtreme is pretty much anything goes mod-wise, with Buell probably giving lots of support but most of the japanese manufacturers just not caring as much (Supersport and Superbike are more important).
I did a demoride on the buells while at the races (both the 12R and 12S). ICK ICK ICK. The tuono was the same thing but so much nicer.
It's amazing the myth of torque (and HP for that matter), waht counts is the trust curve for each gear. With the Buell's only having a revv range from 2.5k to about 6k/6.5k RPM, compared with 3k to 11k for the Italian, the Buell's engine was less flexible for lazy road riding (although the tuono was geared too high, IMO)
Limits are 1L, IIRC
The aircooled twins are, IIRC, limited to 1L.
1.2L would just be ridiculously large (double the displacement of the I4s). Also, if it was 1.2L, you could bet that there would be at least one privateer group running Boxter-Ss, just for the heck of it.
The aircooled twins are, IIRC, limited to 1L.
1.2L would just be ridiculously large (double the displacement of the I4s). Also, if it was 1.2L, you could bet that there would be at least one privateer group running Boxter-Ss, just for the heck of it.
wrong again...
FORMULA XTREME
1. Regulations for Formula Xtreme multi-cylinders and twins are the same as the 2003 Superbike multi-cylinder rules with the following exceptions:
A. Displacement range for multi-cylinder four-stroke motorcycles is reduced to 450cc-600cc.
B. Twin-cylinder, liquid-cooled four-stroke motorcycles displacement range is 595cc-750cc.
C. 850cc-1350cc air-cooled four-stroke twins are permitted with unlimited modifications (only applicable eligibility requirements, homologation and general equipment standards apply).
D. Stock throttle-body assemblies are required on multi-cylinders and liquid-cooled twins. Throttle-body assemblies include the following controlled components:
1.
Intake bore castings and associated housings
2.
Butterfly valves and shafts
3.
Fuel rails
E. Fuel injectors may be replaced with aftermarket units provided the original mounting locations are maintained and no modifications are made to the throttle-body assemblies for injector fitment. The total number of installed injectors must be the same as originally produced.
1.
Secondary butterflies may be securely fixed in the open position.
2.
All other fuel injection system components may be modified or replaced with aftermarket items.
F. Stock intake air boxes are required with only the following modifications permitted:
1.
Air filters, internal flap-type valves, sensors and vacuum fittings may be modified, replaced with aftermarket parts or removed. Any holes in the air box to the outside atmosphere or to the inside of an intake tube resulting from the removal of components must be completely sealed from incoming air. All incoming air must pass through the original, unmodified air box inlets.
2.
Ram-air tubes or ducts may be modified, replaced with aftermarket parts or removed. If tubes/ducts are utilized, they must be attached to the original, unmodified air box inlets.
3.
Velocity stacks may be modified, replaced with aftermarket parts, or removed. The only modification permitted to allow alternative velocity stack fitment is the removal of internal debris deflectors.
G. Stock fuel tanks are required on multi-cylinders and liquid-cooled twins. Fuel fillers, fuel valves and fuel pumps may be modified or replaced with aftermarket units. Tanks may be modified only to permit the installation of these components.
H. Bodywork may be modified or changed to any aftermarket or custom type as long as "fluid retention" regulations and general equipment standards are adhered to.
I. DOT street legal or street-type tires are not permitted.
J. The minimum weight limit for all motorcycles is 350 lbs.
2. Motorcycle Entry Restrictions
A. Motorcycles entered in Supersport are not permitted in Formula Xtreme. The VIN number or an AMA frame sticker number is used for identification. A Supersport-entered motorcycle can be changed to Formula Xtreme only before the first official practice begins. A substitute motorcycle, not entered in Supersport, may replace a Formula Xtreme-entered motorcycle at anytime during the meet.
B. Damaged frames may be replaced and re-registered as a proper entry under the direction of the Chief Technical Inspector.
FORMULA XTREME
1. Regulations for Formula Xtreme multi-cylinders and twins are the same as the 2003 Superbike multi-cylinder rules with the following exceptions:
A. Displacement range for multi-cylinder four-stroke motorcycles is reduced to 450cc-600cc.
B. Twin-cylinder, liquid-cooled four-stroke motorcycles displacement range is 595cc-750cc.
C. 850cc-1350cc air-cooled four-stroke twins are permitted with unlimited modifications (only applicable eligibility requirements, homologation and general equipment standards apply).
D. Stock throttle-body assemblies are required on multi-cylinders and liquid-cooled twins. Throttle-body assemblies include the following controlled components:
1.
Intake bore castings and associated housings
2.
Butterfly valves and shafts
3.
Fuel rails
E. Fuel injectors may be replaced with aftermarket units provided the original mounting locations are maintained and no modifications are made to the throttle-body assemblies for injector fitment. The total number of installed injectors must be the same as originally produced.
1.
Secondary butterflies may be securely fixed in the open position.
2.
All other fuel injection system components may be modified or replaced with aftermarket items.
F. Stock intake air boxes are required with only the following modifications permitted:
1.
Air filters, internal flap-type valves, sensors and vacuum fittings may be modified, replaced with aftermarket parts or removed. Any holes in the air box to the outside atmosphere or to the inside of an intake tube resulting from the removal of components must be completely sealed from incoming air. All incoming air must pass through the original, unmodified air box inlets.
2.
Ram-air tubes or ducts may be modified, replaced with aftermarket parts or removed. If tubes/ducts are utilized, they must be attached to the original, unmodified air box inlets.
3.
Velocity stacks may be modified, replaced with aftermarket parts, or removed. The only modification permitted to allow alternative velocity stack fitment is the removal of internal debris deflectors.
G. Stock fuel tanks are required on multi-cylinders and liquid-cooled twins. Fuel fillers, fuel valves and fuel pumps may be modified or replaced with aftermarket units. Tanks may be modified only to permit the installation of these components.
H. Bodywork may be modified or changed to any aftermarket or custom type as long as "fluid retention" regulations and general equipment standards are adhered to.
I. DOT street legal or street-type tires are not permitted.
J. The minimum weight limit for all motorcycles is 350 lbs.
2. Motorcycle Entry Restrictions
A. Motorcycles entered in Supersport are not permitted in Formula Xtreme. The VIN number or an AMA frame sticker number is used for identification. A Supersport-entered motorcycle can be changed to Formula Xtreme only before the first official practice begins. A substitute motorcycle, not entered in Supersport, may replace a Formula Xtreme-entered motorcycle at anytime during the meet.
B. Damaged frames may be replaced and re-registered as a proper entry under the direction of the Chief Technical Inspector.
Re: Engine, Engine, number (XB) 9
If it did well (for suitably small values of "well") then it did so in spite of the engine, surely? A Ducati or Aprilia V-twin motor in the same frame would presumably have done rather better.
Kudos to E.Buell Esq. for designing a chassis that will carry a vintage tractor engine onto the first page of the results sheet. I'm sure the riders will have had their fillings replaced before the next race...
If it did well (for suitably small values of "well") then it did so in spite of the engine, surely? A Ducati or Aprilia V-twin motor in the same frame would presumably have done rather better.
Kudos to E.Buell Esq. for designing a chassis that will carry a vintage tractor engine onto the first page of the results sheet. I'm sure the riders will have had their fillings replaced before the next race...
Not bad? Puhh-lease ...
if harley holds true to form they will lavish millions on a race campaign, fail miserably, then start their own race league so they can win at SOMEthing. it is very telling that this kind of editorial puffery is ensuing after an EIGHTH place finish.
you do realize, don't you, that
1) 8th out of 32 is NOTHING to write home about.
2) finishing a single race is a much different thing than living with a bike, day in and day out, for years.
it is kind of sad and pathetic that harley insists on soldiering on with the wheezy sporster engine in one of the most advanced chassis in all of racing. it's like bolting a briggs and stratten engine into schumacher's ferrari. maybe somewhere on earth there is a track where the bastard could win, but that don't make it a cool sled.
if harley holds true to form they will lavish millions on a race campaign, fail miserably, then start their own race league so they can win at SOMEthing. it is very telling that this kind of editorial puffery is ensuing after an EIGHTH place finish.
you do realize, don't you, that
1) 8th out of 32 is NOTHING to write home about.
2) finishing a single race is a much different thing than living with a bike, day in and day out, for years.
it is kind of sad and pathetic that harley insists on soldiering on with the wheezy sporster engine in one of the most advanced chassis in all of racing. it's like bolting a briggs and stratten engine into schumacher's ferrari. maybe somewhere on earth there is a track where the bastard could win, but that don't make it a cool sled.
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