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Re: Not so fast Crash The real cost of Arab Oil

Sorry to say, damn it really pains me ....... ok, caught my breath. Gotta go with KPaul on this one, at least partially.

Clearly there are SUVs which are used to carry large families, tow boats or campers, and/or which are used on back roads or deep snow, but every survey I have seen (not just Washington State) confirms KPaul's basic premise. The vast majority of the time, most SUVs are being driven on paved roads, with a single occupant and maybe a purse or briefcase, or maybe a few grocery bags for cargo.

On the other hand,where I live, most families own at least one 4X4 vehicle, and they are used largely as god intended -- to drive off-road and in snow. I own an SUV -- a Ford Escape that gets 25 mpg, and gets me through the deep snowdrifts that are common around here (unfortunately not yet this season -- I wanna ski!), and I also have a 4X4 Ford pickup that gets maybe 15 mpg on a good day, has loud, aftermarket twin pipes (they were on it when I bought it) that gets used when there is snow on the ground, when I go up into the national forest roads, hauling building materials, firewood and most importantly, hauling my Ducati to the track. I don't feel a moment's guilt about either.

While it pains me to see people driving around in perfectly polished monster SUVs that will never be used off pavement -- much the same way that it pains me to see poseur Ducati riders on new 998s, with 1 1/2" "chicken strips" on the edge of each tire, wearing $1500 color-matched Dianese leathers whose knee pucks have never been within 2 feet of asphalt, I do defend their right to squander their money this way if they so choose.

I do have a problem with SUVs (and light trucks as well) being given a free ride from so many environmental, safety and CAFE standards. Not saying whether those standards are right, but if passenger cars gotta meet them, SUVs and pickups should as well.

Cheers

Bob
 

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Those who believe in over-population should kill themselves

Those who believe in this over-population nonsense are the ultimate in unbridled arrogance. You mean OTHER people are causing the population problem not you right?

Perhaps if the entire over-population crowd organized a mass suicide I might begin to believe they were actually serious.
 

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Re: What planet are you on itcmdr?

Anton_1,Gotta love it! I found two documents showing that we are currently in production of about 8.2 million gallons a day, and are importing approx. 560,000 gallons to meet demand. Of course after reading your post I went back through several other documents, graphs and charts, and based on those, it does appear that we are importing about 52% for the first 8 mos. of 2002! And about half of that from OPEC.

I Stand corrected Mr. Cook.
 

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Re: Talk show caller

Gee, Lt. Cmdr, what a shining sack of vitriol you have offered me. Unfortunately, it appears that you were the one with the wrong facts, not me. As for options to tow that boat and family, try an suv that gets good gas mileage, like a Subaru Outback Sport. We own one, and it does just fine on dirt roads, even on what are excuses for roads. And it gets 28 miles per gallon. And it can tow a boat.

No, I don't claim to write as well as Johnny B., but I am neither stupid nor misinformed. In fact, Arianna Huffington wrote a rather superb article on the same subject that I found out about after I made my little post. But you probably think she's a "dumb broad." Here's the link: http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=13960.

My article was intentionally a rant, though I accept the fact that hyperbolic sarcasm goes over your head. And I confess, my intention was to motivate others. And for the manliness comments, I was moved to them by the TV commercials that we see that imply you will be a man if you have a big SUV. These commercials are filled with images of cowboys, construction workers, and horses. You see, I did once work for a large, multinational advertising agency. They actually do think about what will motivate people to buy these oversized tanks. And they do nothing without research. The commercials for the Chevy SUVs are a good example. Obviously, the appeal to "manliness" works in the marketplace, even if it doesn't work on you.

You see, the point I was trying to make is simple. If we cut our oil imports by just a few percentage points, we wouldn't have to buy oil from countries whose citizens put the World Trade Center or the Pentagon on their flight plans. I really don't expect you to like me, but do you like financing terrorism?

Vlad
 

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Amen!



Now, to actually make a difference, we have to get out there and let people know how we feel. Next time you (and I mean YOU) know someone who is thinking of buying an SUV, let them know what a stupid purchase it is. Unless of course, they have a need for it. Ha. Like if they need to simultaneously haul, tow and drive offroad for a large percentage of their driving, like a good 0.001% of our population.



And, whenever the subject of autos come up, let people know you think SUVs are stupid. People buy suvs to impress other people. If people realised how many other people thought they were idiots, they wouldn't buy them, especially if they had a friend or family member that thought they were stupid.



And let me just say as a native rural Minnesotan (even a hilly part) that 4wd is completely unnecessary here. We have these things called snowplows, they clear the road of snow. I have never in my life not gone somewhere in my front wheel drive car that I wasn't planning on going, not once. Nor have I gotten stuck. So throw the "unless you live in the snowy north" argument out the door, it's BS.



I lived 5 miles west of Boulder, CO for 2 winters (up fourmile canyon, for those familiar) with a 2wd Ranger. I never once didn't make it home. Sandbags, winter driving skills and momentum are all you need.



And as for the "I need to haul" argument, minivans have way more useable cargo space, but aren't manly. And what is wrong with owning more than one vehicle? I have a 1986 2wd Toyota pickup with 160k, purchased for $1200, that I only put about 5k a year on, mostly hauling around my CR250. It has a 4 cylinder, and gets between 22 and 27 mpg. Maintenance costs are near zero, and I only have minimum liability insurance on it. I also have a sedan for everyday driving. Compare my economic model with the cost of SUV ownership. No comparison, but I'm not very manly or adventrous.



TELL YOUR FRIENDS, FAMILY AND COWORKERS WHAT YOU THINK OF SUVS!!!!



 

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Re: Not so fast Crash The real cost of Arab Oil

You're right about the epa standards, those vehicales are driven like cars, they should be subject to the same emission requirements, as far as suv's being driven off road, lets do the math, Most people aren't going to risk a scratch on a vehicale they just spent $40k on, and if you don't know how to drive off-road the only thing 4wd is going to do is get you further out in the sticks before you get stuck, People can drive whatever they can afford, and suv's are damn handy if you actually work them, but I think in most situations a minivan or sedan would be more practical, cheaper and safer, an interesting study I read stated that in some cases like hitting a fixed or larger object, your actually more likely to get hurt in an suv, because body-on-frame vehicales transfer energy to the occupants, where as uni-body design's with crumple zones and energy channeling construction deflect energy away from the occupants, not to mention stability issues with more top-heavy design's. with all the advances in saftey, performance, suspension, steering, and tire's available in new cars, why would you take a 20yr. step backward with an suv?

going Brand spankin' new $40K suv,
 

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Re: Talk show caller

Geez Vlad, I hate to keep putting flaming bags of poop on each others porch, but there you go again, and so go I

(now where did I put that eng.comp book?)

I'm generally good with facts and figures, but after my last gaff I hate to say anything. HOWEVER, your beloved Outback with a 3.0 is only rated to tow 2400 lbs. Gosh, thats a whole bassboat ya' got there. I live 20 minutes from the ocean. The lightest boat I have pulled in the last five years is 5000 lbs. I'll take the big truck.

Do you really believe not buying oil will stop terrorism in some small part? We are dealing with messes that our own government has helped created since WWI! If you really want to cut back on terrorism, stop supporting Israel! In 1946 we could have given them a national park as big as their country, a park that was unoccupied! But nooooo, we displaced another people in another country so they could have what they want. They've suffered terribly for it.

Terrorism is a weak and simple mans war. They are bullies. We are doing the right thing. But if you stop buying oil from OPEC, then they will raise the cost to rest of the world, and in the end, we will get in in the rear, one way or another, unless the entire world comes together against them. Won't happen. Hell, we can't even agree to anything on this forum.

By the way, some simpleton with notions like yours is probably in congress right now trying to get the national speed limit back to 55mph to save a couple of gallons of oil, or raising taxes on gas to reduce its consumption and finance the war on terrorism.

(and I don't know you well enough to dislike you, but I do know that I didn't like your thread)
 

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The very same (mostly) free market that produced the plentitude of wonderful motorcycles we all love also produced the SUV. Yeah, most folks who own them don't NEED them in a practical sense. Well, we don't NEED motorcycles either. The market responds to the wants of consumers as well as the needs (food, shelter, etc). Just take a look at the historical examples of societies where needs took precedence over wants. I very much doubt anyone would perfer a Trabant over an

Explorer or an IMZ over any modern m/c made in the West. Crying out for someone to do something about products you don't like is kind of strange since very few non-riders have any affection for any kind of motorcycle. The very Greens and anti-development folks who are the most upset over SUVs are the same people who've blocked the solution to the problem: more roads. Our miles of roads built don't even come close, in proportion, to the increase in vehicles using them. However it is very ironic that the government regulation - and changing tastes - that killed the market for full-size automobiles drove the increase in SUV popularity. The average Explorer IS bigger than say a 69 Impala. Personally, I like the Impala : )
 

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Re: Not so fast Crash The real cost of Arab Oil

That is exactly why I chose the Escape over a more traditional SUV -- modern 4wheel independent suspension, unit construction, good brakes, reasonable size and weight, 25 mpg etc.

The V6 Escape will easily beat my V8 pickup in passing or hillclimbing power.

I also considered Toyota RAV4 and Honda CRV -- I bought used, so choice came down to the best deal I could find.

If I had been able to persuade my wife, I would have gone with a Suburu WRX wagon,which would have met all my practical requirements and would have been a lot more fun too.
 

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Wade through the posts above and find one that suggested outlawing SUVs. I couldn't find one. We're saying don't buy SUVs, here are the reasons, etc.



I don't care for SUVs, and I don't care for cruiser type motorcycles. I can't understand why anyone would buy either one of them. That being said, I have no problem with cruiser riders, all good natured ribbing aside. They are not using a very inefficient tool to get the same job done (in this case, a motorcycle fix) as the rest of us, like SUV drivers are. Cruisers don't make the roads more dangerous to those of us who don't ride cruisers.



You say the market responds to the wants of consumers. This is a vast oversimplification of the market. The market responds to advertising. Let's look at the facts: There have been suburbans, grand wagoneers, and wranglers for a long time. It used to be that only people who needed them bought them, for good reason (they suck for everyday driving). What changed in our society that caused this groundswell? Did the weather get worse? No, the opposite is happening. Did the roads get worse? No, again, the roads get better and better. Did people get more active? No, we're less and less active. Did the automakers figure out how to make outrageous profit margins by preying on people's insecurities? bingbingbing.



There wasn't a groundswell of people wanting SUVs after the oil crisis of the 70s, when the winters were worse, people were more active and snow removal equipment did a worse job than now. There was a groundswell of people wanting SUVs after the big three found out how much lemmings would pay for a pickup truck with an extra row of seats, and came up with one of the most effective ad schemes in history (the "be manly, be an individual, be adventurous, be secure, buy an suv" hype).



Just look, for example, at the Chevy Blazer slogan from a year ago "A little security in an insecure world". How are you more secure in blazer than a camry? And why is the world all the sudden insecure? Crime rates drop lower and lower, average life expectancy continues to lengthen, diseases are being cured, you live in the most powerful country in the world, but you need an SUV to be secure. Because most of the biggest dangers to you can be mitigated if you drive a vehicle with 4wd. Please.



All we're trying to do is let people know they are being had. I've personally convinced many, many people not to buy an suv after I told them what I thought. Never have I written a letter to my elected officials (and I write quite a few) asking that SUVs be outlawed.



I just gotta comment on a news blip I saw the other day on a local station here in the twin cities. It was about some high school rallying around a group of high school girls that were seriously hurt when the RAV4 they were riding in flipped over. They interviewed the parents, and they made a statment that went absolutely unchallenged by the talking heads. While discussing how careful they were to sheild their daughter from the dangerous suburban world they live in, they stated "and we even did hours of research, to make sure we bought our daugher the safest vehicle we could find" A RAV4! Hello! I'm guessing thier research was talking to a toyota salesman.



Oh yes, and more roads are the solution. Just look at Atlanta. A 10 lane wide parking lot, instead of a 2 lane wide parking lot. Much better. A mix of roads, mass transit, and planned development is the answer. More roads and nothing else equals a wider traffic jam.



 

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Why don't you "ANTI-SUV" folks start your own club. You should call it the:



"EVERYONE SHOULD DO WHAT WE SAY AND LIVE LIKE WE DO BECAUSE WE ARE SMARTER AND BETTER THAN YOU, IF YOU DON'T AGREE YOU ARE AN UNPATRIOTIC PATHETIC LOSER CLUB"



Give it a shot, you could be the grass roots of a great political movement in our country. Or as I suspect you will be able to hold your annual convention in a phone booth.



P.S. I think some of you don't even ride, how can you, your posting crap all day. When do you ride?



 

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In the spring, summer, and fall. It's 15 degrees outside.



Oh, and nice reply. So, if you don't agree with us, you won't debate the merits, you'll just attack the messengers. Tells me you've really been thinking about the subject. Good job, keep those thoughtful posts coming.
 

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Re: Not so fast Crash The real cost of Arab Oil

Yeah, I hear that, I tried to talk my wife into a legacy wagon or a forrester, but she didn't like them, and I got a good deal on an Altima, so thats what I got, up here the AWD system on Subaru's is really popular, the Escape and the Mazda version seem to sell well too.
 

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So that'sthe way this works? I never accused any anti-SUVers of wanting to outlaw SUVs. So you answered an arguement I didn't make in order to ridicule my statements. Hmmm.



Also, how many $25-40,000 decisions do you make based on advertising? This dual assumption that the auto industry is both stupid for producing lousy vehicles and diabolicly clever enough to trick people into buying them is way more simplified than my generalizations about the free market system.



Lastly, how about some names and e-mails of these legions of brand-new sedan drivers you so artfully educated? Aint the Internet a grand thing for anonymous flights of fancy?
 

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Yeah, so that electricity could be generated by a coal or nuke plant a few tens of miles away...



People like these electric cars... Where does electricity come from? Coal, which the environmentalists hate, or nuke, which the paranoid environmentalists hate.



Go for fuel cells... It's all about the Hydrogen...



Brad
 
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