Cortec Jacket Review: No replacing an original...
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Re: No replacing an original...
Arrrg!!! I really expect more from an MO article. Denier is not a measure of abrasion resistance. Denier is an measurement of weight per given length. If two threads of the same material have different deniers, then you know the lower denier is a finer thread (less area in the cross-section).
I really wish you guys wouldn't pass on bad information like this. Some people mistake you for experts.
Arrrg!!! I really expect more from an MO article. Denier is not a measure of abrasion resistance. Denier is an measurement of weight per given length. If two threads of the same material have different deniers, then you know the lower denier is a finer thread (less area in the cross-section).
I really wish you guys wouldn't pass on bad information like this. Some people mistake you for experts.
Re: No replacing an original...
So, correct me if I'm wrong, denier is not a very useful measure unless you have some idea of the thread count that goes with it? The weave and size of the thread would determine some wear characteristics but one without the other would tell you little?
So, correct me if I'm wrong, denier is not a very useful measure unless you have some idea of the thread count that goes with it? The weave and size of the thread would determine some wear characteristics but one without the other would tell you little?
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236 Posts
Re: No replacing an original...
You're correct is that it is useless, but I haven't seen much to indicate that weave is too critical. Mostly we should be concerned with thread melting point, tensile strength, and elasticity. Of course, that would require detailed tags and educated consumers. Slapping on "1000 denier" is so much easier.
BTW, that technically means 1000 grams per 9000 meters of synthetic thread. The length used for natural silk is different, but I've never had to worry about that so I can't remember it.
Denier does give us an idea of how large threads are relative to one another. 1000 denier Cordura will be twice the diameter of 250 denier Cordura, but don't ask how that will compare to your generic 500 denier ballistic nylon.
You're correct is that it is useless, but I haven't seen much to indicate that weave is too critical. Mostly we should be concerned with thread melting point, tensile strength, and elasticity. Of course, that would require detailed tags and educated consumers. Slapping on "1000 denier" is so much easier.
BTW, that technically means 1000 grams per 9000 meters of synthetic thread. The length used for natural silk is different, but I've never had to worry about that so I can't remember it.
Denier does give us an idea of how large threads are relative to one another. 1000 denier Cordura will be twice the diameter of 250 denier Cordura, but don't ask how that will compare to your generic 500 denier ballistic nylon.
Who wrote this review?
So.....who wrote the artice, ehh? Must've been the rookie intern (a.k.a. Crash). But I would hate to give credit to the wrong person. Please follow up with an thorough explanation of Denier pertaining to wear characteristics so we, your information deficient subscribers, can make an informed decision about purchasing such items.
Hasta luego, amigo.
So.....who wrote the artice, ehh? Must've been the rookie intern (a.k.a. Crash). But I would hate to give credit to the wrong person. Please follow up with an thorough explanation of Denier pertaining to wear characteristics so we, your information deficient subscribers, can make an informed decision about purchasing such items.
Hasta luego, amigo.
And "softer" rubber sucks too?
So, all things else being equal, a 250 Denier thread has an unknown tolerance to abrasion Vs. (the otherwise identicle) a beefier Denier thread?
Why do we say thicker leather is a good indication of tolerance to abrasion?
Why is softer rubber "stickier"?
Why do we publish peak bhp when we should really be judging area under the curve Vs. time and mass?
In a real-world crash, define abrasion? Non-symetrical joints (your body) poking, pulling and pushing at weird angles on a non-standard surface fraught with irregularities creates... what? Shear, stress, strain, tear, tension, etc. etc Vs hot spots and temperature absorption/dissipation/failure. Using -- all other things being equal -- overall stronger thread _is_ a valid way to increase life's so-called "abrasion" in a crash.
Lastly, what's really important here is: Defining why Lowrez has a pet peeve about fabrics today. ;-)
So, all things else being equal, a 250 Denier thread has an unknown tolerance to abrasion Vs. (the otherwise identicle) a beefier Denier thread?
Why do we say thicker leather is a good indication of tolerance to abrasion?
Why is softer rubber "stickier"?
Why do we publish peak bhp when we should really be judging area under the curve Vs. time and mass?
In a real-world crash, define abrasion? Non-symetrical joints (your body) poking, pulling and pushing at weird angles on a non-standard surface fraught with irregularities creates... what? Shear, stress, strain, tear, tension, etc. etc Vs hot spots and temperature absorption/dissipation/failure. Using -- all other things being equal -- overall stronger thread _is_ a valid way to increase life's so-called "abrasion" in a crash.
Lastly, what's really important here is: Defining why Lowrez has a pet peeve about fabrics today. ;-)
Re: No replacing an original...
Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me for not knowing this trivial little fact! JEEEZ! I stand corrected and will write "Denier is an measurement of weight per given length" 100 times on the MO Punishment Board! Mea culpa!!!
Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me for not knowing this trivial little fact! JEEEZ! I stand corrected and will write "Denier is an measurement of weight per given length" 100 times on the MO Punishment Board! Mea culpa!!!
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236 Posts
Re: No replacing an original...
I don't fault you for not knowing. Heck, I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't worked with fabrics to know. However, if you don't know what denier actually is, either don't comment on it or look it up. Making a statement otherwise is just asking for someone to point out the error.
I don't fault you for not knowing. Heck, I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't worked with fabrics to know. However, if you don't know what denier actually is, either don't comment on it or look it up. Making a statement otherwise is just asking for someone to point out the error.
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236 Posts
Re: And
Sure, a stronger thread will live up to abrasion better. (Mind you it isn't some abstract concept, we all know what it is and isn't) The problem is that a higher denier doesn't mean stronger, it just means heavier. Like I said, if the threads are the same material, higher also means thicker (though not necessarily "stronger").
Fabric industry is something that I follow as a casualty of work I've done in the past. You can only be involved in the assembly of automotive seats and the QA for so long before you start to ask what everything means. You also start to get very scared if you start trying to figure out how good that new mystery fabric is. (I'm still trying to figure out what Roc-Tex is.)
Sure, a stronger thread will live up to abrasion better. (Mind you it isn't some abstract concept, we all know what it is and isn't) The problem is that a higher denier doesn't mean stronger, it just means heavier. Like I said, if the threads are the same material, higher also means thicker (though not necessarily "stronger").
Fabric industry is something that I follow as a casualty of work I've done in the past. You can only be involved in the assembly of automotive seats and the QA for so long before you start to ask what everything means. You also start to get very scared if you start trying to figure out how good that new mystery fabric is. (I'm still trying to figure out what Roc-Tex is.)
Re: And
On the other hand, while a thicker thread will not necessarily have a better level of abrasion resistance, if it is of identical material, the thicker material will have greater abrasion time before destruction, that is, it will take abuse longer before failing. Which translates directly into sliding down the road further before your new jacket has holes in it and we begin testing the abrasion resistance of human flesh. (Undeniably, less than the abrasion resistance of ballistic nylon.)
-Kawazuki
On the other hand, while a thicker thread will not necessarily have a better level of abrasion resistance, if it is of identical material, the thicker material will have greater abrasion time before destruction, that is, it will take abuse longer before failing. Which translates directly into sliding down the road further before your new jacket has holes in it and we begin testing the abrasion resistance of human flesh. (Undeniably, less than the abrasion resistance of ballistic nylon.)
-Kawazuki
Re: And
On the gripping hand, it should be noted that many materials do display strength to cross-section ratios. Though, I suppose we aren't really interested in tensile or shear strength per se, but rather the effect of erosion on the material.
Is there a term, or a defined measure, for abrasion resistance?
-Kawazuki
On the gripping hand, it should be noted that many materials do display strength to cross-section ratios. Though, I suppose we aren't really interested in tensile or shear strength per se, but rather the effect of erosion on the material.
Is there a term, or a defined measure, for abrasion resistance?
-Kawazuki
Sniglets
But, "Denier" when used for fabrics is a sniglet:
"Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)"
Denier De*ni"er, n.
One who denies; as, a denier of a fact, or of the faith, or
of Christ.
"Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)"
Denier De*nier", n. F. denier, fr. L. denarius a Roman silver
coin orig. equiv. to ten asses, later, a copper, fr. deni ten
by ten, fr. the root of decem ten; akin to E. ten. See Ten,
and cf. Denary, Dinar.
A small copper coin of insignificant value.
My dukedom to a beggarly denier. --Shak
But, "Denier" when used for fabrics is a sniglet:
"Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)"
Denier De*ni"er, n.
One who denies; as, a denier of a fact, or of the faith, or
of Christ.
"Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)"
Denier De*nier", n. F. denier, fr. L. denarius a Roman silver
coin orig. equiv. to ten asses, later, a copper, fr. deni ten
by ten, fr. the root of decem ten; akin to E. ten. See Ten,
and cf. Denary, Dinar.
A small copper coin of insignificant value.
My dukedom to a beggarly denier. --Shak
test subjects
While I am not saying we should use terrorist prisoners as test subjects, I will say that what we need is test dummies weighted to say 250- lbs, dressed in these clothes, and uniformity shoved out the backside of a pickup truck at 70mph.
If you have access to a test track, it would make a great column.
Further, you could just let the pictures of the jackets tell the story.
While I am not saying we should use terrorist prisoners as test subjects, I will say that what we need is test dummies weighted to say 250- lbs, dressed in these clothes, and uniformity shoved out the backside of a pickup truck at 70mph.
If you have access to a test track, it would make a great column.
Further, you could just let the pictures of the jackets tell the story.
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295 Posts
About leather
I'm not certain where he's going with that closing paragraph, but for the money, fabric generally offer superior abrasion resistance than leather. In fact, when you get into the higher weight fabrics, I'm not certain that leather can beat it. Leather has certain advantages, sure, but fabric is the better way to go on the street. Except for the "I'm cool factor," of course. The reason the aerostitch is the boss dog of street wear is partially because of the inherent ability of fabric to be washable, wearable, abrasion resistant, and resistant to the elements.
Vlad
I'm not certain where he's going with that closing paragraph, but for the money, fabric generally offer superior abrasion resistance than leather. In fact, when you get into the higher weight fabrics, I'm not certain that leather can beat it. Leather has certain advantages, sure, but fabric is the better way to go on the street. Except for the "I'm cool factor," of course. The reason the aerostitch is the boss dog of street wear is partially because of the inherent ability of fabric to be washable, wearable, abrasion resistant, and resistant to the elements.
Vlad
Re: No replacing an original...
If you want to search for quality jackets/boots/gloves at the best possible price, try http://www.newenough.com. Not only do they have good prices, but they also list fitment charts (in addition to the manufacturers charts that may be a little off for us 'morons) and comments on the construction of the jackets/boots/gloves that they stock. Try looking at their hot weather textiles.
If you want to search for quality jackets/boots/gloves at the best possible price, try http://www.newenough.com. Not only do they have good prices, but they also list fitment charts (in addition to the manufacturers charts that may be a little off for us 'morons) and comments on the construction of the jackets/boots/gloves that they stock. Try looking at their hot weather textiles.
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236 Posts
Re: And
I don't know if there is a standard mesaure for abrasion resistance or not. It really isn't much of an issue when assembling seats. Why the threads keep breaking and why we use 43 staples per seat when only 25 are in the finished product are the more important questions.
I don't know if there is a standard mesaure for abrasion resistance or not. It really isn't much of an issue when assembling seats. Why the threads keep breaking and why we use 43 staples per seat when only 25 are in the finished product are the more important questions.
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