[TheFox]

First post!



Is this thing really going to make 220 horse at the crank, or is Ducati being optimistic, or is this just a typo?



I was hoping for something exotic, something totally insane, like an 8 cylinder. I'm not suprised they stayed desmodromic though. So my question is this: how will the firing order assist in maintaining traction? Any engineers out there than can help me out?



--The Fox

 

[xIrvx]

pulsating and throbbing

I'm not an engineer, I would rather do than think! lol

There is a difference between static friction and sliding friction. Remember when you were a kid and wanted to sled down the hill? The sleigh wouldn't go unless you gave it a push. The idea of big bang is similiar: the rear tire breaks loose as it is subjected to thrust when the piston is on the power stroke. The tire then re-grips (static friction) while the piston goes through exhaust/intake/compression. The cycle of static grip-breaking loose-sliding grip has higher average traction than constant sliding grip. There was an excellent article written by Cycle magazine back in the 70s about tire traction mechanisms.

 

[Joe_Momma]

The only engineering I do is electronic, but from what I understand, the less power pulses you have for ever tire rpm, for the same amount of power, the better off the tire is when dealing with the power. I guess it gives the tire a few more milliseconds to rest before the next pulse. Makes no sense to me since most racers are tearing up tires spinning and sliding to steer a bike instead of just staying on the edge of grip, just before the tire begins to slide.



I think Ducati wants the sound to be similar though.

 

[Joe_Momma]

Re: pulsating and throbbing

Hey, that's like the opposite of Anti-Lock Brakes. Or the same Idea, except used for decel instead of accel.

 

[evilgenius]

Have you seen the

The other guys are making the Kawasaki seem like a simple souped up ZX-7? Uses identical frame and engine bored out from the ZX-7 that "only" diplaces to between 900cc and 960cc?

What gives? Seems to me that K is making a secondhand effort at developing a GP contender. Could it reflect their financial troubles or their engineer's inability to come up with a unique bike?

Has K reverted to becoming "junkyard scroungers" (looking at old ways and old stuff to soup up things)?

 

[056]

Hey Techno-Geeks!

Could Ducati (or anybody) develop a fuel injection/engine management systme that CHANGES the firing order from big-bang to conventional depending on track, lean angle, rider preference, or whatever? I mean, is firing order a mechanical or electronic thing?

 

[Joe_Momma]

Re: Hey Techno-Geeks!

It is mechanical. This engine design has each set of pistions going up and down at different times, the first set firing and then the next set firing together maybe 90 or 270 degrees later, depending on where you start. It's all related to the piston/rod connection to the crank, so it's mechanical, then the valve lift/duration/close/ignition is set accordingly wit the fuel injection map, which should be a bit simpler with the ducati set up. This is my attempt at explaining it but I could be wrong. That system you are talking about would require some amazing cams/cranks to change firing order on the run.

 

[Joe_Momma]

Re: Have you seen the

Knowing Kawasaki, they probably borrowed the XREO engine and modified the 7RR frame (which is always been a great frame on a bike with a sucky engine)... Poof, a GP bike. Oh, and ad some ugly body work too.

 

[evilgenius]

Re: Have you seen the

The XREO is a V-4 whereareas the Kawi "GP" bike is an in-line 4, just like the ZX-7.

I agree with you that the ZX's frame has always been solid, but the engine hasn't disappointed that much lately. K's been able to keep the big guys in their sights on some occassions.

It's just that time's not on their side and eventually, they'll have to pull an all-outer to come up with a serioius GP contender.

I honestly don't think a souped up ZX-7 can compete against the big guns (call it what you want, but it's a souped up ZX-7 with ghastly bodywork).

 

[Joe_Momma]

Re: Have you seen the

I was joking on the engine part, since kaw and suz are "joining some forces". The bike is damn near ugly, and is probably ancient already before it's debut. THey may surprise us though. All you really need is a good rider and that's half of it. Make the bike capable and you may have a winner.

 

[SB8RC]

Hey I know of a special engine that everyone should look towards to power their bikes. It is really crazy it has no valves, a camless design, and each cylinder fires every 360 degrees. I also believe that the 2001 gp championship was won with one of these creations.

 

[SB8RC]

I also thought that the limit for these four strokes were 988cc's

 

[Grover]

Re: Hey Techno-Geeks!

This is interesting because I'm not totally familiar with V-4 layouts but, numbering the cylinders from front to back and left to right, changing the firing from 1+2 (simultaneously) then 3+4 (simultaneously) to 1+4 then 2+3 wouldn't be terribly complicated (okay valves and cams would be whacked, but there's always pneumatics!). The crank layout is the same no matter what, the valve timing is all that gets altered. Of course I don't know what advantage that would have other than changing the vibration characteristics and the exhaust flow resonance. My hunch is that one is probably much better than the other, but more input by others who are in-the-know on this topic would be interesting.

 

[417]

All this talk of oval piston (NR500 and NR750) and V4 engines (VFR, RC30, RC45) all sounds like something coming out of Honda. Has Ducati finally seen the light and Honda were right all along, or is there a merger on the cards? Hell if Kawi and Suzuki can do it what about a Duconda or a Honcati? Long live the V4, or should us VFR riders be pushing for a V5 road bike now? Nah no need, I love my VFR just the way it is.



Cheers

Merv.

 

[evilgenius]

The 4-stroke limit is 990cc regardless of cylinder configuration, but there are weight restrictions (can't remember the exact number cyclinder classes).



2-strokes have same rules as last year (500cc limit regardless of cylinders but with weight restrictions on more cylinders).



Should be very interesting year for MotoGP...

 

[417]

Re: Hey Techno-Geeks!

You say the crank layout is the same no matter what. This can't be true as the key to big bang is altering the crank layout to change the position of the pistons relative to each other. Someone can tell me if I'm wrong but as I understand it my VFR road bike has a 180 deg crank while the racing Honda V4s had 360 deg cranks.

Cheers

Merv.

 

[417]

Re: Hey Techno-Geeks!

If they stuck with a 360 deg crank and a four stroke engine they could then choose whether to fire two pistons at the same time or on alternate revolutions and you would need pneumatic valves or something like it to change the breathing timing. However, it could get a bit messy changing from half way through one four stroke cycle to another out of phase by one revolution. What would be tricky would be any other variation on timing that would require a variable crank angle.

Cheers

Merv.

 

[dougie_1]

Ducati's decision to follow the v4 layout shows just how clever ideas always find application in one from or another. Ostensibly, the might Honda coporation tried repeatedly create sucees with the V4 layou(i.e.rc45). Although it did achieve a modi***** of sucess with Miguel Duhamel stateside(95 AMA season) and abroad with the mecurial John Kocinski, it was Ducati's overall domination with the twin cylinder option, which prompted Honda to adopt what unagruably was more sucessful over the long term. Great ideas, fortunately, never just disappear. In this case now Ducati(and Suzuki, i understand) recognize the unrealized potential of the V4 layout pionnered by Honda. Time will tell just how much more is possible with the V4. Since my first ride back in 93, i've always owned motorcycles with inline 4 engines: Ninja600,gsxr750,cbr900,f2,f3 and currently a R1. I'm certain the heated competion in the upcoming motoGp series Among the manufactures and the differnt engine layout each manufacture has chosen( Yamaha-inline4,Honda-v5,Suzuki and Ducativ-4 etc..) will produce even more exicting street bikes in the coming years. As i tell anyone who has a burgeoning interst in sportbikes, we truly are witnessing the equilvalent to what we have seen in the computer indutry in the last 7 years or so. Fierce competion makes for ever improving and innovative products.

 

[engine01]

Track techniques site WANTED?

Totally unrelated I know but while there are so many racing enthusiasts on line I thought I'd ask.....does anyone know a good "how to" site on the net for race/track techniques. I am going to my first track day and thought it would be good to read the theory on positioning, braking, power delivery etc. (Yes I know I should go do a proper performance riding course but I dont have time before the day).....any tips?

 

[417]

Interesting comments. I think you are right we should see the next round of technological advance. As for the V4 versus the twins in WSB the only issue was capacity. If the V4 could have been a 1000cc like the twins there would have been no contest. Ducati just had it all their own way except for the brilliant year put in by Kocinski in 1997 and prior to that Russell on the Kawasaki in 1993 and the original winner Fred Merkel on the RC30 in 1988 and 1989. As the Ducati stretched out to the full 1000cc Honda went the twin route as well and Edwards won first year out with the RC51 and Aprilia were in there too. Then Honda's development slipped a bit last year. Where were the 750cc fours though? Nowhere because of capacity. The new GP format though brings the full sized four strokes together on equal terms (bar weight) no matter how many cylinders the engine has. I like it and I think things will be interesting. The question though will be how much life is left in the 2 strokes this year. Will they still win or not? Whatever it has to be a fun year ahead.



Cheers

Merv.