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First Post!?



Well, there are going to be a lot of people that are going to hate it because it is a "sell-out" by "Honda-Davidson", but those heads must come out of the sand, people. The air-cooled engine is on its way out, thanks to the greenies.



'Course, it is very difficult to get anything like the power shown on that chart from an air-cooled v-twin.



I'm curious who is going to buy this thing, and at how much over the already scary sticker.
 

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Amazing!? Why?

"Displacing 1130 cubic centimeters, it's really quite amazing that this cruiser is able to pump out 107.8 horsepower and 74 foot-pounds of torque." Why? V twin sport bikes do the same or better all the time, and from smaller displacements. Why is this special or amazing? I like the new Harley look, but my head is still in sportbike country when dyno time comes. How are they going to attract sport customers with these numbers?
 

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Re: Amazing!? Why?

Well, first off it isn't a sportbike. You don't normally ride a cruiser the same way you ride a sportbike. The beauty of the V-Rod is that you get the look and ride of a cruiser (assuming that's what you're into), but you still have more than a bit of power to lay down when you want it.

Besides, now cruiser types can blow away from people at stop lights, too.
 

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I dunno but those torque numbers look pretty good along with that high HP for a crusier. But I will never... I repeat NEVER buy a Harley. Theres no way they can make up for the way they've marketed crap technology in the past and charged outrageous ammounts for it. Hell I doubt I'll ever buy a cruiser. Maybe a Guzzi. Screw Harley.
 

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Sleepless nights

I don't know about the sleepless nights. As good as the Harley may be, you'll probably have to be on a waiting list to buy one for WAY OVER list price. If the Japanese big four can continue to keep thier big cruisers priced $10K less, they still have a big market.
 

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Re: Sleepless nights

Priced $10K less? Deadeye, take a look at the price of the VTX or some of the other new "power cruisers" and redo the math. And just in case you have forgotten, this difference is only short term. Because when the time comes to trade it, it'll still be worth what I paid for mine (I was the first one to get to my home dealership last Thursday when the bike hit the website, and I got mine for sticker...) There isn't a Japanese cruiser out there (including the mucho-hyped VTX) that can say that. Hate it all you want, but this one is going to lay a hurtin' on the Japanese power cruiser marketshare every bit as large as the Reagan-era tariff did on all large Japanese bikes in the mid-80's.
 

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Re: Amazing!? Why?

These numbers are actually competitive considering what there target market is. Someone considering a naked muscle bike might opt for this if they had the cash. Remeber, the original Kawasaki ZRX1100 only made about 95hp. The newer ZRX1200 only makes about 115hp, and that's a inline 4. Bandit 1200 is similarly powered(about 107 hp). Those bikes and the Harley are big muscle bikes where torque is just as important, if not slightly more than peak hp. Also, consider the Suzuki TL1000s only puts out about 106hp. I'm not a cruiser fan, but that won't stop me from appreciating a good engineering effort. Even if I did like cruisers, it's too expensive for my taste, but you can't dictate another man's profit. If Harley can get 17 or 18 K-bucks for it, good for them.
 

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Reliability would be my next concern as well. My friend's 2000 Road King had the shifter lever fall off. Give me a break - 17,000 for a bike that parts fall off of? For that kind of money, I don't want any reliability concerns. That said, I am happy to see this bike from Harley. I say to them, welcome to the 21st century (or really the late 20th century). HD bikes will be making 130 hp at the rear wheel in a few years (and Hondas will be hovering over the ground - for 5000 less).

 

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Does anyone REALLY think that the V-Rod is worth that kind of money? We aren't exactly talking about a Bimota here. That kind of money is ridiculous. Motorycycles have to be one of the cheapest vehicles (besides bicycles) to produce. There is absolutely no way that bike cost 18K to make. Even worse, how much more than a Sporster do ANY of Harley's bikes cost to make? Last time I checked Sporsters were dirt cheap.

THis is a fantastic motorcycle, but since when has a domestic manufacturer supposed to be MORE expensive than imports. This is like GM charging more than Honda. (I like Hondas better by the way ;) )I am not impressed with Harley. I REALLY REALLY REALLY like this bikes looks. If Harley's trying to expand it's customer base then this is one guy who might be buying a Harley in the future. But not at that price. I could get a Sporster modified to get pretty damn close to that level of performance for a lot less. Not really apples to apples, but you get the point. Harley needs to produce something based on the Sporster. Sort of like the V-Max but with a Twin. And not a Buell product. Those guys realy have to get it together. THey are so close but they insist on that stupid exhaust, and some sort of Kit Car styling. Bring it on Harley!! Drop the Easy Rider, Biker Gang styling and build more prooducts like the V-Rod!
 

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Oh, We're an Expert in Moto-Economics, Are We?

I don't know how much Harley invested in this motor, but BMW spent about $200 million bucks designing their oilhead motor, and EX-celcior Henderson spent a similar amount of (other people's) money to put out their new bike.

What makes a modern, liquid-cooled motorcycle so cheap to make? There is a lot of very expensive design and componentry in there. Are you saying a loaded Hyundai Elantra really costs that much more to make? Why? Because of the cardboard inside the doors? All the extra steel?

Plus, they are only making 11,000 of them. I think $17k is cheap for such a limited run.

But the bottom line is this: in a free market, goods are sold at the prices people pay. If people buy 11,000 of these things for $17k apiece, then thaey are indeed worth that much.

If you are concerned about price gouging, stop eating fast food. $3 worth of "Value Meal" costs maybe $.40 to produce, counting rent, materiels, and pimply, quasi-child labor.
 

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Sportster cheap? How 'bout $9k+ for a 1200 with a little bit of chrome (that's what my friend's bike MSRP was). You can get a lot more bike for that kind of money than what the Sporster offers. Same with this thing I'm sure. 107 hp is impresive, but for that kind of dough? Sheesh.
 

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blah

11,000 units at $17,000 isn't nearly as good as good as 30,000 units at $10,000.

At $10,000, I'd go ahead and put my '00 SV650 down as a deposit right now.

at $17,000.... I'd go buy that Subaru WRX I'd been longing after (granted, I'd still be $7,000 away from the WRX).

Harley's got something good. Too bad they're keeping it out of the hands of so many people. Imagine how many people who buy japanese bikes because of the price would convert to buying American.
 

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Re: blah

Actually it turns out that 30,000 units at $10,000 is only better than 11,000 units at $17,000 if the cost to produce the bike is less than $5,947. I'm not sure that Harley can produce these bikes that cheaply.
 

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Nice look. And the Dyno shows Porche did a good job on the engine.

Maybe Porche charged Harley an arm and leg, so the price is to offset the Porche factor. Come to think about it $20, 25, 30K is cheap for a Porche.

But the Japanize and Italians do (much) better with less, and they don't cost as much.

Can't wait til Buell gets a hold of the engine.



Tom

 

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Re: Amazing!? Why?

Bur Rock, you have to remember, the ZRX1100, 1200 and the big Bandit all weigh considerably (something like 150lbs) less than the new Harley's porky 615 lbs. It's the power/weight ratio that really matters, not the numbers on the dyno. If you put the QE2 on a (really big) dyno, you'd get HP numbers in the thousands, but how fast is that ship really going to go?
 

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Re: Sleepless nights

Please keep in mind that ALL Japanese auto and motorcycle manufacturers are subsidized by the Japanese government to keep unemployment low. This is one of the ways the Japanese keep prices low.
 

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something to consider

each bike on the market does NOT pay its own way. IF this wer the case, I don't think anyone woul dbe able to afford a GSXR . the R and D is horriblly expensive, and there is no way for those bikes to pay their own way in sales. Every time someone buys a 800 intruder (made with almost no new tooling since the early 80's) they subsidize the Gixxer line. Same with HD, the sporty aline, and the rest of the cruisers are expected to cover R and D costs for the other bikes, includeing the VR and the V rod.
 

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>>'Course, it is very difficult to get anything like the power shown on that chart from an air-cooled v-twin<<



Buells having been coming real close (and/or exceeding it with minor mods) for years. Basically using an ancient aircooled pushrod Sportster engine with hotter heads and a big airbox. The reason you haven't seen faster cruisers from Harley OR the imports is that their market research has (in the past) said their customers didn't want them any faster. At least not stock. That is changing. Harley is responding. Though they've made their share of blunders H-D hasn't stayed around a century by doing *everything* wrong, though to read the posts from their detractors here one might think that.



As for who's going to buy it IMO that's a no-brainer. The same affluent people who buy so many of their current models. You should see how they're raving about it in all the online groups for owners of very expensive cars. The "die-hards" are people who very often buy used Harleys anyway, and they will accept the V-rod after it trickles down the food chain a few years, just like they did the Evo which they hated at first too.
 
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