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If we were comparing just EVs to other EVs, I think a much more useful scale would be MPKWh (Miles per kilowatt hour) or even MPCH (Miles per charge hour), etc., etc.
Yes of course.

I guess I could have added: "to compare cars or bikes of like types" or something like that, but I thought that was clearly implied when I said there was no meaningful comparison between an electric car and a gas car for mileage. Obviously it wasn't.
 

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I actually think alternative fuels are very promising, but not the way that mess has been handled. We have to figure out how to make enough of a viable fuel. Growing it in the traditional sense ain't gonna cut it.
We don't even have to. We're sitting on such huge old-style energy reserves that OPEC is sh!tting bricks. If we have any hope for recovering from - or somehow dodging - the inevitable sovereign debt collapse, it may well be because of fossil fuels.
 

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OF COURSE IT'S BULLSHEEIT

What else could they possibly be? You're comparing a car that uses a refined liquid fossil fuel to a car that uses transmitted eletrical energy. Surely you didn't think those numbers were anything else but a fabricated number to use for comparisons, did you?

Hell they've never gotten it right when it's just one type of fuel in one type of engine. Like Mr. Duke said, it's just a number; a scale you hold up to each vehicle to compare.
You were just telling us range has tripled.

I guess bullshyt has tripled.
 

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Except it isn't.

MPGe is presented in a context that is familiar to consumers, in this case, "Miles Per Gallon." One would then have to assume that the relationship between MPG and MPGe is sound and accurate. I believe it's also meant to be a meaningful comparison between fossil fuel-powered vehicles and EVs, but even if it wasn't, the way it's derived all but ensures that it will be used that way.

If we were comparing just EVs to other EVs, I think a much more useful scale would be MPKWh (Miles per kilowatt hour) or even MPCH (Miles per charge hour), etc., etc.

If we're simply referring to the EPA range estimates, Kevin's advice to use it as a measuring stick between EV's is fine, except it still doesn't accurately portray range in a manner that people understand. Since EVs' range suffer at the expense of performance (and vice versa) worse than ICEs, it's a misleading number. We might advise people to take that EPA estimated range and subtract 30 or 40% to get in a realistic ballpark.
Pdiddle, you will drive yourself nuts trying to have a logical argument with our dear KMo.

He can move goal posts with KPaulian vigor.
 

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An MPG-equivalent measure is just pointless and dumb. We don't rate cars by a Bucket of Oats Per Day equivalent (though the existence of horsepower measurements may undercut my point.)

Tell us how far it goes in an actual real-world test, and how much that range costs at a particular kilowatt/hour rate.
 

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The Irony here is Hard as Steel, man.

Did you read completely through that article?

Then again, you ARE a substantial measure more reasonable that say, ER2 or especially He Who Is TotallyBatshirtBugNuckingFuts.
Of course I did. It was a conservative whine session about how the bad old liberals distorted the truth about Plame and Bush and yada yada yada. So what? It doesn't matter to me which side it's coming from, it's all bull**** regardless. The point remains that it's up to the individual to figure out that an "Miles Per Gallon" figure for an electric car cannot be anything but a number somebody made up.

However, I didn't know before reading it that whatever "Platformate" is actually exists in all modern gasoline! Now that's marketing!
 

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An MPG-equivalent measure is just pointless and dumb. We don't rate cars by a Bucket of Oats Per Day equivalent (though the existence of horsepower measurements may undercut my point.)

Tell us how far it goes in an actual real-world test, and how much that range costs at a particular kilowatt/hour rate.
That's exactly what I think. It's not that hard to figure out how many cents per mile you spend on gas, likewise it shouldn't be difficult to figure out how many cents per mile you'd spend on recharging your electric car.

AND, doing it this way would also have the benefit of showing people how efficient their local energy provider is compared to other markets. If you're paying (totally off the top here) $.08 per mile to recharge, and the national average is $.05, that's useful information.
 

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That's exactly what I think. It's not that hard to figure out how many cents per mile you spend on gas, likewise it shouldn't be difficult to figure out how many cents per mile you'd spend on recharging your electric car.

AND, doing it this way would also have the benefit of showing people how efficient their local energy provider is compared to other markets. If you're paying (totally off the top here) $.08 per mile to recharge, and the national average is $.05, that's useful information.
Dammit! but this place needs a "Like" button.
 

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The point remains that it's up to the individual to figure out that an "Miles Per Gallon" figure for an electric car cannot be anything but a number somebody made up.
I would argue that naming the measure "MPGe" means the EPA intends quite the opposite.

Listen, all I want the EPA to do is provide a resonably accurate number that I can use to help determine if I want to buy one of these things. Guess what? I might actually buy one someday. Really. They sound like they could be fun and useful once they become more practical. I really like the Tesla S, too!

What I don't want the EPA to do is pass off some overly rosy number to the public in the hope that they'll provide another layer of covert subsidies (which we'll now pay for through sales) to companies with sub-par products.

My whole problem with the way EVs are being marketed is simple. Good advertising kills bad products faster than anything. That's the mistake here and it will eventually cripple this industry before it even gets on its feet.

Remember, almost none of these companies are viable businesses yet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 · (Edited)
Ok. This one is really simple. The EPA is giving a number that compares the amount of fossil fuel necessary to generate the recharge needs of e-vehicles per miles traveled. This gives an MPG rating. The DoE did the same thing but included the real world generation losses which gives a far lower figure and also reveals that e-vehicles in reality use as much fuel as gasoline powered cars. There is no free lunch. Sorry if reality doesn't support the religious dogma of the True E Believers.
 

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Ok. This one is really simple. The EPA is giving a number that compares the amount of fossil fuel necessary to generate the recharge needs of e-vehicles per miles traveled. This gives an MPG rating. The DoE did the same thing but included the real world generation losses which gives a far lower figure and also reveals that e-vehicles in reality use as much fuel as gasoline powered cars. There is no free lunch. Sorry if reality doesn't support the religious dogma of the True E Believers.
Dude... electricity comes from the wall socket. And... and solar. And it has, uh, electrolytes.
 

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An MPG-equivalent measure is just pointless and dumb. We don't rate cars by a Bucket of Oats Per Day equivalent (though the existence of horsepower measurements may undercut my point.)

Tell us how far it goes in an actual real-world test, and how much that range costs at a particular kilowatt/hour rate.
Any MPGe is silly. The EPA UDDS ratings might be unrealistic, but they are useful when comparing e-bikes. Real-world ratings depend so much on what your world consists of. Add it all up, and it simply supports consumers checking in to MO to find out the real scoop!

Stay tuned for a Zero S review. We got 62 miles of hard use on Latigo Canyon and PCH and a bit of freeway.
 

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Any MPGe is silly. The EPA UDDS ratings might be unrealistic, but they are useful when comparing e-bikes. Real-world ratings depend so much on what your world consists of. Add it all up, and it simply supports consumers checking in to MO to find out the real scoop!

Stay tuned for a Zero S review. We got 62 miles of hard use on Latigo Canyon and PCH and a bit of freeway.
Who towed you home?

Ha ha!
 

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See that the Brammo has a cameo in the new capital one commercial with alec as the secret agent? Looks like the chicka that is his "backup" slides one in. No fumes on the set I guess.
 

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Wouldn't it make more sense to divide the kilowatt hours to charge by the miles ridden instead of some contrived miles per gallon metric?
You ask for logic, Theo, I give you the E...P... A.
 
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