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I thought HD was going to introduce a sportbike sometime in the future, it is a market segment they are missing out on big time. Aren't they also testing a liquid cooled v-twin? That motor, along with what they are learning from the VR1000, could make a competive sportbike which is *very different* form the Japenese sportbikes. I would buy such a bike, and I think there are other people out there who would too.



Or they could be useing what they are learning form the VR1000 to devlope better cruisers. Perhaps they see a day when the name will not be enough to sell bikes.



Maybe they are doing it just becaus so many people say they can not. Whatever the reason, _I_ think they can, and will, win in AMA Superbike.
 
The problem with all of you Harley bashers is that your the same type of people that used to cheer for the Bulls during the Jordan era. I bet you don't even watch the bulls anymore. Do You?!



I have been with Harley and will always be with Harley and I dread the day when they start winning and all you idiots come across the fence.



I know what your saying "Don't worry they never will win anyway so you will never see us".



I think the day will come and it is probably not too far off.



Of course then you will all say "They had to get ideas from so and so or help from hear or there"



Piss off.
 
Right-on torkmonster!

I think that it is great that Harley is compeating in superbike racing at all. Remember that they dont have to race to sell bikes, so they must be doing it for the fans and the history. It aint no secret that they are loosing money on it, so give them some credit, or if y'all could do better, than do it.
 
As a race team owner on the FUSA circuit, we ran VR1000's with factory leased engines from Gemini, and also as the owner of Anthony Goberts ZX-7RR that we purchased from Muzzy and raced in 1996 & 1997 in conjunction with the VR1000, and as a friend of Erik Buell, Henry Duga, Gary Valine, Marty Brown, and a lot of other people at both Buell and HD, I think that I am reasonably qualified to speak on the VR1000, (and Buell) team.



1. In reference to Aprillia, Rotax, not Aprillia, builds the Aprillia 1000 engine.



2. It took Ducati, with decades of overhead cam engine racing history 5 years to win a superbike race with the 851/888/916/996, and 7 years to win its first championship. And that was done with a very large displacement advantage in a time that the disparity was very noticeable.



3. If HD were to go hire every jap bike engineer available, what would they learn other than competitive hiring practices?



4. As a VR1000 team owner, I had more than my share of complaints about the program. It was essentially 8 guys led by Steve Scheibe and Pete Mohar trying to beat a whole planetfull of GSXR teams out of an underfunded garage. While I personally don't care much for Scheibe, I do beleive in giving credit where credit is due, and they did acomplish a signifigant amount of work, given the resources that they had.



5. Don't knock the riders, Pascal and Mike. I know for a fact that the VR1000 that Miguel raced in 1994 had 107HP at the rear wheel. Yea. Miguel led several nationals, as did Fritz Kling on a bike with 107 HP at the rear wheel.



I think that with Steve Baker at the helm, and with the R&D arm of Ford and Cosworth backing them, that later this year, we will see some substantial gains made. I doubt that many of you are old enough to remeber Enzo pissing off Henry the 2nd and the resulting 427 development program with the GT40 Mk4 that eventually went on to win the FIA world championship against Ferrari in the late 60's.



From that personal slight, Ford know has the attitude of beat it until it breaks, fix it, do it again, until you can beat the hell out of all of them. I only hope that that attitude carries over into the VR program.



Also, don't be too impressed by the VTX 1800 making a 100 HP and 100 ft lb.s of torque from that engine. Granted, it was a brilliant marketing move by Honda, but I have seen 140 HP and 135 ft lbs. out of some of the much hated S&S motors that are of similar displacment.



Lastly, The Buell is a true sportbike, regardless of the engine. Don't forget, Ducati still builds the majority of its bikes without water in the engine either. And if you don't think it's not a real racebike, just ask the second place Ducati that was beaten at willow in the Pro Thunder race by one.



I do expect to see a competitive sport bike in your definition of the word from Buell in the next calander year.



Enough rambling, enjoy!



Mark L.



 
Re: time for a change

Why do you have to be a an experienced race team builder to see the obvious. Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha, Ducati they all have reasons to build, race and win. They have a customer base that Harley doesn't.

Wouldn't it make sense to build a sport bike customer base first? If Harely built a real sportbike at a resonable competative price that I didn't have to wait on I would give them a chance. With or without the racing program. Wouldn't that make it easier to justify budgets for race programs to the big wigs at HD? With a sport bike customer base they would have a reason to go out and race and win.

All I know is if you ain't gonna do it right then don't do it at all. Now I'm not saying I know what the right way is but it would make sense that if they were doing it the right way they would have won something in the last decade?
 
Mark, you really nailed the issue: Scheibe and 8 merry men in a garage. This is the best that HD could do? My problem is this; I am an American engineer and the fact that Harley was even out there with such a pathetic effort is insulting and embarassing.



The linkage with Ford may make all the difference, IF the company decides to realyl go at it whole hog. How much did HRC plow into the RC51? Even they have had problems. This isn't easy and I think that any American motorcyclist and/or engineer is justified in being angry at HD for smearing American engineering with the effort thus far.



It looks like we are incompetant, when the whole problem was corporate neglect. Again, as an American engineer/racer, I would love to see an American company lead the world. My personal choice wouldn't be Harley, with all of its macho BS baggage, but maybe they can get away from that past.



As for Buell, I rode all of them and agree that Eric and his boys are very good engineers. But they are saddled with a worthless engine to work with. Give 'em a real motor and it would be great.
 
Harley bashing?

Let's see:

An incredibly cash rich bike manufacturer

Huge Nationalistic support (if they wanted)

Able to use a clean sheet - not tied to existing model perceptions (like GSXR/YZF)

Excellent road racers on their team (Picote is no slouch)



What more could a budding race team want?



But they suck. No one's bashing Harley... just a manufacture with it's corporate head up its corporate butt.

Spend some coin on real engineers, real development people and build a real bike.



This is a lot like GM and their Saturn that was 'destined to become a better car than the Japs could make'. It was a better car... than a 10 year old Corolla.

Harley VR1000... Meet Ducati 851.



Maybe if the VR1000 had saddle bags...

 
Actually Enzo pissed off Mr. Carol Shelby (fired him from his race team) who swore to beat the guy. Henry II didn't care. The Italians were beat with a much modded english chassies (AC) and the 289 motor... then the 427.



Regarding VTX... that's a factory bike. The S&S stuff is custom. No comparison... unless you don't think that the aftermarket can get any more hp out of the VTX.



RE: Buell... great bike, looks cool, awesome chassies (especially considering what it's got to tote around) but sucky engine. We all know Eric could build a better (pure sport) bike with a real engine. Buell is winning despite a major handycap (the engine) and that's certainly a testimony to his skill!



The overpowering question is why is Harley putting a half baked effort into racing. It's got to be embarrising to Harley guys the world over and funny to the rest of us. Why? Because they could have kicked everyone's butts with a concerted effort the first or second time out. Their pathetic effort is what is causing the bashing.



 
Re: time for a change

I actually think you've got that backwards. They CAN'T build a roadracing customer base until they've won some races. Would you be a Harley roadracing customer? Would most Harley riders? Heck no... Harley riders (and this is not intended to be a flame, or flamebait) aren't generally into that sort of thing, and the people who ARE, don't ride Harleys. Once they've won a few races (if they ever do) they'll begin to attract a few of those type of customers. I personally am waiting on the alleged new Buell sportbike, it looks promising... if it turns out to be as good as it could be, I'd be interested in owning an American made motorcycle. I think it'd be kind of neat to have a homegrown Ducati competitor.
 
Re: By the way....

I have to disagree... I rented a Daewoo Lanos recently. It had 600 miles on it's odometer and I could smell burning oil when I gassed up. That's GOT to be the worst engineered vehicle on the planet.
 
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