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Adapt or die

"The real reason behind all this Buell and MV Agusta hulabaloo is money."

Yup, those companis were both losing it, so they got dumped. Not enough interest in the brands becuase there a lot more 'cruiser guys' that never bought one and never will. I guess you finally managed to say something halfway smart in the last 5 years. Maybe logic school is paying off for you a bit.
The real reason for getting rid of these brands is the $ 5 bn toxic debt that HD has now in the books rotting away. This is the money that was used to finance the guys buying the new bikes. Now to keep the wheels turning the company has to borrow money with an astronomical 15% rate.

The previous strategy to build Buell and Agusta to global brands, to beat Harley's aging clientele problem, was pretty good. Now its all down the drain because there is no cash to do it.

And although HDs lame-ass 64 rwhp is sad, it has nothing to do with the consumer debt. Whereas it certainly aggregates the age problem. Where I live every kid running around the block on a 125 Yamaha knows that HD is not on top of the cruiser game any more.

It seems to me that some emotional patriotic feeling gets in your way to see that the competition has passed by in the big cruiser market. But remember that I belong to the 95% of the world's population that is not American.

- cruiz-euro
 

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Super Duper Mod Man
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"Where I live.."

About as relevant to the real world as the price of a scam in Nigeria.

"But remember that I belong to the 95% of the world's population that is not American."

Sounds like life sucks for you. I guess you were patriotic enough to buy a Harley anyway, bucause 95% of the world's population can't build a Harley. At least they had enough game to get you to buy one.
 

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I dont like Harleys but the motor they have choosen sells pretty well you have to admit. Harley as much as I dont care for them have always out sold the sportbike market, and Japanese cruiser market. Their style of bikes and motors and their following stand out and speak for themselves. If that's what you choose, you do it because thats what you like, nothing wrong with 64hp motor if thats what ya like!
 

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Patriot games

I guess you were patriotic enough to buy a Harley anyway, bucause 95% of the world's population can't build a Harley.
Patriotic? For the 95% of the world's population it is, if anything, an unpatriotic act to spend excessive money on an American recreational item.

Anyways "patriotic" is a very dubious attribute on our side of the Atlantic. It is usually connected with doing something very nasty to the neighboring peoples.

- cruiz-euro
 

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Where I live every kid running around the block on a 125 Yamaha knows that HD is not on top of the cruiser game any more.

- cruiz-your o
But the kids are wrong. HD remains on top of the cruiser game by any measure. Their sales surpass everyone in the catagory by a wide margin. Their competition continues to copy them at every turn (seen the lastest "Dark Customs" from Kawi and Yamaha?). And nobody, US, or otherwise, has ever come even close to creating the brand identity and cutomer loyalty that Harley has. HD will continue to suffer in the poor economy. When the economy rebounds, so will HD. They will lose a few buyers to the Japanese builders, but they will gain back even more who start Japanese, and then come to their senses and buy their Harley. And they will make business errors like aquiring MV Augusta...like they did in the '60's with Aermacchi, but they will recover from it and continue being THE heavyweight motorcycle company.

BTW: I'll bet any one of those kids would sell their sister to get a Harley.
 

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At this point in the game I wouldn't ride anything else. All the bikes I lust after now are different Harley models. I guess I've become a one trick pony but I don't feel I have anything to prove anymore, I buy what I like and what fits my current riding enviroment. Other than a few of the new Moto Guzzi's and Beemers, Harley makes what I like .

That's the problem with the Japanese "cruiser" models, you could give me one free and I wouldn't ride it. I'm just not interested and there are a substantial number of Harley owners who feel the same way, I've owned and ridden almost every style and manufacturer made and aside from some vintage European motocrossers and street bikes I'm not too interested. The Japanese bikes that I do like they won't import here like the CB1100 prototype Honda so screw 'em
 

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Rider of the mid range king

But the kids are wrong. HD remains on top of the cruiser game by any measure. Their sales surpass everyone in the catagory by a wide margin. Their competition continues to copy them at every turn (seen the lastest "Dark Customs" from Kawi and Yamaha?).
The kids are not wrong. Harley may be on top of the game on many measures but not where it matters most: grunt. Age old question: does size matter? Does power and torq matter?

Yes they bloody well do matter and the sore fact is that during the last seven years five other companies have overtaken Harley and by a big whopping margin.

Those kids all know it. Maybe not in Alabama where the they all have wrongly spelled "Harly-Davidsson" tatooed on their asses. But certainly anywhere else where they surf in the net, read the specs and comparos.

Leading manufacturer of mid-range cruisers, screw me with a stick. HD needs to up the game. Why the hell can't they just start moving their asses?

- cruiz-euro
 

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Super Duper Mod Man
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"Yes they bloody well do matter and the sore fact is that during the last seven years five other companies have overtaken Harley and by a big whopping margin."

I'm not sure a bigger lie was ever told. Name the 5 companies and show me the sales numbers on how they have 'overtaken' Harley. I bet a million bucks you can't even name one.

"Why the hell can't they just start moving their asses? "

Because the own the cruiser market by a L-A-R-G-E margin is why.
 

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Times square

At this point in the game I wouldn't ride anything else. All the bikes I lust after now are different Harley models. I guess I've become a one trick pony but I don't feel I have anything to prove anymore, I buy what I like and what fits my current riding enviroment.
Yes Sarnali I see what you are saying and its true for many. But then the thing is that those of us baby boomers that ever wanted a Harley pretty much got it. And with a mileage most of us are doing they are going to last another 100 years (the bikes, not the owners).

Regardless, we are still buying some. But as we are in this funny process of moving from a saddle to a golf cart and then to a wheel chair, the companies selling motorcycles should start shifting focus to what kind of ride the x and y generations really want.

Is it really that granpa's 64 rwhp slug that he rode before the final alcohol poisoning? I somehow don't think so.

- cruiz-euro
 

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Some are delighted

"Yes they bloody well do matter and the sore fact is that during the last seven years five other companies have overtaken Harley and by a big whopping margin."

I'm not sure a bigger lie was ever told. Name the 5 companies and show me the sales numbers on how they have 'overtaken' Harley. I bet a million bucks you can't even name one.
Dear longride, I was not talking about sales numbers (such as Honda 13 million and Harley 0.2 million) but, had you understood the preceeding sentence, about torq and power.

Torq as in that Harley has to screw a third cylinder to be in the league of big cruisers. And still not winning.

Is this good in your opinion? Do you really cherish the fact that Harley is the El Impotente in the big cruiser market?

- cruiz-euro
 

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Super Duper Mod Man
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"Dear longride, I was not talking about sales numbers..."

So there is nothing really quatifiable to show that Harley is being 'overtaken' other than the other people make bigger motors?
 

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This is our strategy boys, erm...

"Dear longride, I was not talking about sales numbers..."

So there is nothing really quatifiable to show that Harley is being 'overtaken' other than the other people make bigger motors?
Yes longride, you are spot on as usual. There is nothing really quantifiable at all that Harley has been overtaken. Apart from some meaningless things like torque and power.

And who cares about them anyway? Surely these will not be important to anyone. A cruiser brand that does not shy away from looking like chickenshyt in the presence of the competition can only get increased respect in the long run.

For some reason you don't want to anwer my question whether you were happy with Harley having the lamest set of wheels in the big cruiser market. Wonder why its so hard to give an answer. Only very unflattering alternatives come to mind.

- cruiz-euro
 

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Super Duper Mod Man
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Yes longride, you are spot on as usual. There is nothing really quantifiable at all that Harley has been overtaken. Apart from some meaningless things like torque and power.

And who cares about them anyway? Surely these will not be important to anyone. A cruiser brand that does not shy away from looking like chickenshyt in the presence of the competition can only get increased respect in the long run.

For some reason you don't want to anwer my question whether you were happy with Harley having the lamest set of wheels in the big cruiser market. Wonder why its so hard to give an answer. Only very unflattering alternatives come to mind.

- cruiz-euro
So let's sum it up. Buell went out of business because it was a 'weak brand' but they made a 'strong motor' in their bike. Harley sells 100 times more than any other cruiser with the 'weak motor', yet they are going under because everybody else makes 'strong motor' in their bike. Yet Buell went under despite a 'strong motor'. I got it now.

I already answered your stupid 'happy with a lame bike' question 100 times. How much planer can it get? Are you dense? I OWN A HARLEY! Would that mean I am unhappy with it? I can buy ANYTHING I WANT ANY TIME I WANT, yet I OWN A HARLEY. If I wasn't happy with it, I'd buy something else. Get it now dumbass? Sheesh. I have owned a ridden just about every brand and bike out there at one time or another. You act like I have no idea what other people make. I do know. I would rather ride a Harley tourer than any other. Mine is stock too. 64 horsepower has taken me all over the country for almost 40,000 miles. Imagine that. I hated every mile according to you. I have owned the same lame underpowered harley tourer for 9 years now. Do your unflattering alternatives still come to mind?
 

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The kids are not wrong. Harley may be on top of the game on many measures but not where it matters most: grunt. Age old question: does size matter? Does power and torq matter?

Yes they bloody well do matter and the sore fact is that during the last seven years five other companies have overtaken Harley and by a big whopping margin.

Those kids all know it. Maybe not in Alabama where the they all have wrongly spelled "Harly-Davidsson" tatooed on their asses. But certainly anywhere else where they surf in the net, read the specs and comparos.

Leading manufacturer of mid-range cruisers, screw me with a stick. HD needs to up the game. Why the hell can't they just start moving their asses?

- cruiz-euro
This is wrong on so many levels it's hard to tell where to start:

Fixation on size is typically a reflection of low self-esteem. If speed and power are tops on your list, you don't buy a frikin cruiser to begin with.

Nobody has overtaken Harley. HD sells over a quarter-million bikes. Only Honda sells more, and they do that only by selling everything from dinky scooters to a gazzillion sport bikes. The dumbest thing HD could do would be to make a significant change in what they build. Every time they do, it's a bust. Chasing after the latest gizmo or the Style De Jour like the rest of the market does is not a good strategy for them.

BTW: do you know what nation is the second largest market for Harley Davidson? I'll give you a hint: a lot of cheesy HD clone cruisers come from there.
 

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This is wrong on so many levels it's hard to tell where to start:

Fixation on size is typically a reflection of low self-esteem. If speed and power are tops on your list, you don't buy a frikin cruiser to begin with.

Nobody has overtaken Harley. HD sells over a quarter-million bikes. Only Honda sells more, and they do that only by selling everything from dinky scooters to a gazzillion sport bikes. The dumbest thing HD could do would be to make a significant change in what they build. Every time they do, it's a bust. Chasing after the latest gizmo or the Style De Jour like the rest of the market does is not a good strategy for them.

BTW: do you know what nation is the second largest market for Harley Davidson? I'll give you a hint: a lot of cheesy HD clone cruisers come from there.
I see the envious Finn has got another one going again. If he's this bad now just wait 'til February when he's been cooped up inside in the freezing dark for a few months.

Europe - wishing it was America for 300 years now.
 

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Wow you own a Harley

I already answered your stupid 'happy with a lame bike' question 100 times. How much planer can it get? Are you dense? I OWN A HARLEY! Would that mean I am unhappy with it? I can buy ANYTHING I WANT ANY TIME I WANT, yet I OWN A HARLEY. If I wasn't happy with it, I'd buy something else. Get it now dumbass? Sheesh. I have owned a ridden just about every brand and bike out there at one time or another. You act like I have no idea what other people make. I do know. I would rather ride a Harley tourer than any other. Mine is stock too. 64 horsepower has taken me all over the country for almost 40,000 miles. Imagine that. I hated every mile according to you. I have owned the same lame underpowered harley tourer for 9 years now. Do your unflattering alternatives still come to mind?
Tsk tsk longride, you are getting blood pressure again. And you didn't answer my question either. My question was not whether you are happy with a 64 rwhp Harley. Hey I am talking to a guy who signs his postings with an amazingly witty "I am a knucklehead".

The question was are you happy with Harley positioning itself in the market as the producer of the big cruisers with the most anemic engines?

As a Harley rider I am not.

- cruiz-euro
 

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Harley sells more than Yamaha oh yes

Nobody has overtaken Harley. HD sells over a quarter-million bikes. Only Honda sells more, and they do that only by selling everything from dinky scooters to a gazzillion sport bikes.
You must have your statistics from 1953. Didn't we just read an interesting article from China that said there are 12 manufacturers that sell over 500,000 bikes? It didn't say how many sell over quarter a million but hey, you do the maths. And those didn't include any of the most common brands either.

Another interesting factoid: in terms of the number of motorcycles in use the good old US ranks in the 11th place.

- cruiz-euro
 

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Tsk tsk longride, you are getting blood pressure again. And you didn't answer my question either. My question was not whether you are happy with a 64 rwhp Harley. Hey I am talking to a guy who signs his postings with an amazingly witty "I am a knucklehead".

The question was are you happy with Harley positioning itself in the market as the producer of the big cruisers with the most anemic engines?

As a Harley rider I am not.

- cruiz-euro
Yup, I'm happy with Harley postitioning inself in the market as a producer of the bug cruisers with the most anemic engines. Anything else?
 

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You must have your statistics from 1953. Didn't we just read an interesting article from China that said there are 12 manufacturers that sell over 500,000 bikes? It didn't say how many sell over quarter a million but hey, you do the maths. And those didn't include any of the most common brands either.

Another interesting factoid: in terms of the number of motorcycles in use the good old US ranks in the 11th place.

- cruiz-euro
The stats are from the only market that really matters.
 

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