[starvingstudent]

Good. I never understood why they were in it to begin with. They weren't competitive, and their own customers didn't care one whit about racing.



It would be nice to think that without this extra burden, they'd drop prices to what is reasonable for the technology they sell. But that's wishful thinking, unfortunately.

 

[starvingstudent]

"The VR 1000 Superbike racing program helped Harley-Davidson develop and refine technologies such as liquid-cooling and electronic fuel injection."



What, like those things are so hard to figure out? It's an embarassment that HD only started using them on street bikes in the late 1990's and early 2000's, even with the "help" of their racing program.

 

[starvingstudent]

Let's think about pricing rationally. If it only costs $5600 to build a Sportster 883 (and sell it at profit), do they really expect me to believe that it costs $16,000 to build a Fatboy?



By the way, your average Japanese cruisers (Shadow 1100's and such) are pretty much all under $10,000, and though they aren't bleeding-edge technology, they're well ahead of Evo and Twin Cam Harleys (liquid cooling, 3 or 4 valves per cylinder, etc). Yet they cost 1/2 or 2/3 as much. And remember that HD only needs the tooling to build a few engines (twin cam, sportster 883, big-bore it to get a sportster 1200, new V-ROD) whereas the Japanese manufacturers have dozens of different engines. All rational thinking says that Harleys should cost as little or less than Japanese cruisers, but they cost far more. Welcome to the world of $6000 tank badges.



Of course a Goldwing costs as much as a Fatboy or an Electraglide. It's an aluminum-framed, technology-intensive design that usually also comes with a freakin' sound system and all sorts of other goodies. And it makes something like 100hp, 100 ft-lbs stock. What does the Fatboy have to justify ITS price?



Incidentally, I don't object to Buell pricing, as it's more reasonable than HD and you get a lot more technology and work for the price.

 

[starvingstudent]

"eliminate unsprung weight"--hey, I seem to remember hearing that the swingarm will be filled with oil.



If you really think that thing will out-accelerate an R1 and out-handle a 996, that's fine, tell yourself whatever you want. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[starvingstudent]

"No cheers for the ricer crowd"



World War II has been over for...let's see...56 years!!! Get with the program and quit flaunting your racist beliefs.

 

[starvingstudent]

More power figures

Read VFR's comments, but here's some other stuff:

At 4000 rpm, the R1 gets 45 rwhp and 57 ft-lbs of torque. Peak figures for a stock R1 are [email protected],500rpm and [email protected] Courtesy of Bike magazine issue 327 (an independent tester, not a Yamaha representative).

And I've also got a hunch that the R1 revs faster than the Firebolt (so the R1 could be at, say 5500rpm when the Firebolt is at 4000), though I don't have any genuine stats.

Also remember that for racing, ft-lbs alone don't matter one whit. It's only the horsepower at the RPMs the racer is achieving that matters when determining speed. The torque curve is merely the first derivative (I knew I'd use calculus sometime!) of the horsepower curve. Comparing torque figures when one bike revs faster than another is useless, whereas comparing the hp figures they are achieving is still pertinent.

And finally, "around town in every day real life"--funny, I thought we were talking about PROFESSIONAL RACING, you know, like the article is about? Around town an EX500 is better than a 996SPS, but that wasn't the topic of conversation.

 

[starvingstudent]

That's great that you enjoy your bikes, both of them. My point was not that, but this: Harley-Davidson has a astronomically higher profit margin on each bike sold than Japan. I've got nothing against low-tech bikes that have visceral appeal--I prefer a Shadow 600, a W650, or a ZR7 to a 929 or a 996. However, given that HDs are low-tech bikes that mostly all use the same tooling, they should be priced as such.



Can you explain to me why a Fatboy is siginificantly more expensive than an RC51? I didn't think so.



HD is selling those bikes with an obsenely high profit margin. I don't like that corporate creed, and I feel it should be pointed out to people who don't step back and look at the facts.

 

[starvingstudent]

Even more power figures

I couldn't find a dyno for the new Firebolt, so I used the Buell Lightning as the engines are both two-valve v-twins that make 70 ft-lbs and 90hp roughly. And I threw in a 916SPS just for fun. Here is some side-by-side numbers, by the RPM (courtesy of MO's own dyno runs):

4000 RPM: Lightning 46hp, R1 45hp, Duc 47hp

5000 RPM: Lightning 65hp, R1 64hp, Duc 58hp

6000 RPM: Lightning 82hp, R1 75hp, Duc 74hp

7000 RPM: Lightning redlined, R1 94hp, Duc 90hp

8000 RPM: Lightning redlined, R1 110hp, Duc 107hp

9000 RPM: Lightning redlined, R1 125hp, Duc 113hp

10,000 RPM: Lightning redlined, R1 133hp Duc redlined

Doesn't seem that the Firebolt has a real advantage at lower revs, and as it cuts out at ~6000 rpm, the others keep climbing. Looks to me the Firebolt doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell if someone trys to make a racebike out of it.

 

[starvingstudent]

Re: Even more power figures

Didn't you pay attention? The "fat long torque curve" of the Firebolt is SHARED by the R1 and 916 (not to mention 996) at those revs. They aren't any "peakier" than the Firebolt--they share its power curve, and then add on some extra instead of having a redline.

The Firebolt might be a really fun streetbike, but it doesn't seem to have the goods for racing.

 

[starvingstudent]

Not to mention...



why should I care less about a blue-collar worker supporting his family in Kawasaki, JP than a blue-collar-worker supporting his family in Milwaukee, USA? They're both honest, hardworking guys (or gals) trying to put food on the table.

 

[starvingstudent]

An analogy

As for RACING, would you applaud a 110-lb guy trying to be a linebacker in NFL football? Would you support a 5'2" guy wanting to play professional basketball? They're gutsy, I suppose, but they're also very stupid for competing in a venue where they have zero chance for success. Their time would be better spent elsewhere. That's how I feel about HD and Superbike racing.

As for streetbikes, to each their own. I wave at 'em all, and some wave back.

 

[starvingstudent]

This is America, and they have a right to swindle, as you so properly point out.



Well, this is America, and when a businessman is a swindling A-hole, I have the right to call him on it, boycott his company, and encourage others to do the same.

 

[starvingstudent]

Re: An analogy

Since you agree with my idea but not my analogy, let me make it more clear.

You cite people who are thin or short (as if 6 feet is short!), but not to the degree that I stated. There has NEVER been a 110-pounder in the NFL, even if there has been a 180-lb "flyweight". Though there have been some "short" six-footers in the NBA, has there ever been someone who is 5'2", or 4'8"? Didn't think so. My grandfather is 4'7", and if he tried to join the NBA, yes I would call him a fool. The examples you give are equivalent to something like the CBR929--down ten or so horsepower. The Firebolt is down thirty or fourty horsepower, like my examples. Good handling and "spirit" won't matter when you have a deficit _that large_.

Well, use whatever analogy you want, we seem to agree on the basic idea anyway ;-)

 

[starvingstudent]

Re: An analogy

If I came off as a bigot (or someone inclined to bigotry), then there was a big miscommunication, and I apologize. My only point is that supersport/superbike racing is _extremely_ competitive right now, and it's almost impossible for a company with little experience in street sportbikes, not to mention racebikes, to win. Triumph's gotten their ass handed to them in regards to the TT600 (though it still makes a great streetbike), and they have a lot more sportbike experience than HD.

As for streetbikes, personal satisfaction is all that matters. I wave to everything from street-legal dirtbikes to CBRs to Road Kings. Hell, I ride a Shadow 600 myself (though I wouldn't say no if someone offered me an SV), so it's pretty obvious I'm not a squid on the street and don't object to slow bikes (or VERY slow bikes, as mine is ). Though I object to Harley pricing and wouldn't own one myself, I've got no problems with other people owning them.