[starvingstudent]

"eliminate unsprung weight"--hey, I seem to remember hearing that the swingarm will be filled with oil.



If you really think that thing will out-accelerate an R1 and out-handle a 996, that's fine, tell yourself whatever you want. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[starvingstudent]

"No cheers for the ricer crowd"



World War II has been over for...let's see...56 years!!! Get with the program and quit flaunting your racist beliefs.

 

[dynarider]

The swingarm is not filled with oil entirely. Just near the pivot point. 3 quarts does not weigh much & it will be around the pivot so it qualifys as sprung weight.



And I never said a Buell will outaccerlate an R1 or a 996. I simply stated on a roadcourse where all of the R1's power will simply not be used due to short track length, the Buell will keep up due to superior handling & greater torque. The R1 needs to wind up to 9000 rpm to make good power, in contrast the Buell is making maxed torque at 4000 rpm. Also what does an R1 have for torque 40 maybe? The buell hits 70 lbs with ease, that translates into more energy coming out of a corner sooner.



Obviously the longer straights will favor the R1 or otherbikes, but in the world of short roadcourses & around town in every day real life, it's pretty much all evened out. Unless you regularly race your bike in town at 165mph

 

[luvmyvfr]

Say,

Isn't that a seam on the XB9R's Tank? Won't that piss off all the Hardley guys? From all the pissing and moaning that went on about the VTX1800's tank, I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet. Just goes to show how blindly devoted some image hungry, inept riders can be.

Bitter? Me? Yes, actually. Hardley riders are the unfriendliest bunch of monkeys on the road. Never wave, always trying to look bad, roaring their pipes in the parking lot (the horrendous volume of the exhaust saving their lives, I suppose, from little kids on roller blades and bicycles), and giving the rest of us a bad image. I would pull over to help anybody having bike trouble, unless they "live to ride" (on the weekends, when the weather is nice, if their bike happens to be running and not in the shop).

 

[luvmyvfr]

P.S.

If you refer to http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mccompare/ultimate98/tq.gif

you'll find that the R1 meets and beats 70 ft/lbs of torque everywhere on the torque curve, from about 4500 RPM's to about 9750 rpms. That's the forward thinking of EXUP and the genesis engine. Also, the Buell XB9R only makes 68 ft/lbs of torque MAX, and that at 5500 RPM's, (see http://www.buell.com/products/xb9rspecs.asp) which is a far cry from your 4000 RPM claim.

Want my advice?

Check you numbers before you post, that way you don't look like an idiot.

 

[starvingstudent]

More power figures

Read VFR's comments, but here's some other stuff:

At 4000 rpm, the R1 gets 45 rwhp and 57 ft-lbs of torque. Peak figures for a stock R1 are [email protected],500rpm and [email protected] Courtesy of Bike magazine issue 327 (an independent tester, not a Yamaha representative).

And I've also got a hunch that the R1 revs faster than the Firebolt (so the R1 could be at, say 5500rpm when the Firebolt is at 4000), though I don't have any genuine stats.

Also remember that for racing, ft-lbs alone don't matter one whit. It's only the horsepower at the RPMs the racer is achieving that matters when determining speed. The torque curve is merely the first derivative (I knew I'd use calculus sometime!) of the horsepower curve. Comparing torque figures when one bike revs faster than another is useless, whereas comparing the hp figures they are achieving is still pertinent.

And finally, "around town in every day real life"--funny, I thought we were talking about PROFESSIONAL RACING, you know, like the article is about? Around town an EX500 is better than a 996SPS, but that wasn't the topic of conversation.

 

[919rr98]

I sit and laugh at the comments posted on this website. How can anyone compare a Harley w/ other bikes, Japanese, Italian, British etc.??? I'm guilty too- I ride a Japanese sportbike, and it is truly great- I would never ride one of those oil pump Harleys for 15k-until I rode one!!!!!! I still have my RR, but I NOW I HAVE A FATBOY TOO. Sometimes I feel like putting on the full face and riding 100 mph weelies, other days I want to cruise at 45mph with my skully and appreciate 100 years of H-D tradition. What I'm saying, "Were all bikers and should respect and appreciate the different styles of riding." We all have a choice to ride what makes us happy, it's not a competition-just get out and ride, have fun and STOP WHINING!!!!!

 

[starvingstudent]

That's great that you enjoy your bikes, both of them. My point was not that, but this: Harley-Davidson has a astronomically higher profit margin on each bike sold than Japan. I've got nothing against low-tech bikes that have visceral appeal--I prefer a Shadow 600, a W650, or a ZR7 to a 929 or a 996. However, given that HDs are low-tech bikes that mostly all use the same tooling, they should be priced as such.



Can you explain to me why a Fatboy is siginificantly more expensive than an RC51? I didn't think so.



HD is selling those bikes with an obsenely high profit margin. I don't like that corporate creed, and I feel it should be pointed out to people who don't step back and look at the facts.

 

[David_2001]

Ummm.... having ridden an R1,929,GSXR750,etc....

I can tell you that when you turn on the power on an R1 - you turn on the power!. I believe torque spec you were reaching for was 74.5 for an R1. You can just about turn on the gas in any gear and any where in the rev range and it just goes - really fast. Anyway, GSXR's are the stupid power bikes anyway. I can beat an R1 on a GSXR750, the 1000 is much,much,much faster. I can't comment on the buell because I haven't ridden one yet.

Besides, lets look at the good part of this. Pascal Picotte will get to ride a bike with a chance of winning a race! I really hated to see him waste his riding skills at HD.

 

[starvingstudent]

Even more power figures

I couldn't find a dyno for the new Firebolt, so I used the Buell Lightning as the engines are both two-valve v-twins that make 70 ft-lbs and 90hp roughly. And I threw in a 916SPS just for fun. Here is some side-by-side numbers, by the RPM (courtesy of MO's own dyno runs):

4000 RPM: Lightning 46hp, R1 45hp, Duc 47hp

5000 RPM: Lightning 65hp, R1 64hp, Duc 58hp

6000 RPM: Lightning 82hp, R1 75hp, Duc 74hp

7000 RPM: Lightning redlined, R1 94hp, Duc 90hp

8000 RPM: Lightning redlined, R1 110hp, Duc 107hp

9000 RPM: Lightning redlined, R1 125hp, Duc 113hp

10,000 RPM: Lightning redlined, R1 133hp Duc redlined

Doesn't seem that the Firebolt has a real advantage at lower revs, and as it cuts out at ~6000 rpm, the others keep climbing. Looks to me the Firebolt doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell if someone trys to make a racebike out of it.

 

[nome]

Man I am so glad you are alive!!!!!! I agree with you 100% I don't think these people know that there is nothing new under the son and that Harley makes very good numbers, just compare the facts such as roll on and quarter mile times against other fake Harleys. Not to mention fuel milage and the quality of the bike, they except for one make that I have seen dont even come close! ride safe!!!

 

[BuellBoy]

I'm sorry, I reread his ENTIRE post and NOWHERE did he say it would out-accelerate an R1. As for outhandling a 996, that DOES remain to be seen. I'll put my money on the Firebolt.

 

[BammBamm]

I have an FXRS, a CBR, and an XR650L. That's a Harley, a Honda sport bike, and a dirt bike.



According to most of the posters here, every time I ride one of my bikes, I should hate myself twice, and two thirds of me should be pissed off. What a bunch of whining babies.



I ride each of my bikes because I enjoy them. Harley deserves credit for trying to go racing, and perhaps some admiration for trying it their own way even though they failed. I'm sorry to see them go because the more competitors, the better for race fans.



The simple fact of the matter is that the American riders are split, and the only ones buying Harley products, do so for different reasons than the people buying Japanese or Euro-bikes. That doesn't explain the venom and derision aimed at each other.



In my opinion, anyone that dismisses any other type of bikes is missing out on a lot of fun, and are mainly into biking for pose value. Some people like Harleys, some don't. Get over it.



Can't we just all get along?

 

[moose]

well, they should've stuck around a few more years, & learned from the Japanese how to build a reliable, competitive, & very fast motorcycle.

it's unfortunate.

 

[Z1R]

dynarider



Harley has come a long way in the last few years.

-STANDARD HARLEY EXCUSE-





The new firebolt..remember at it's core it

is a harley, probably the best handling bike ever mass produced.



-DID YOU RIDE IT YET?-

 

[jmeyn]

Re: Even more power figures

What matters is accelerating force at the tire patch which is torque x tire radius x overall gear/sprocket ratio. At the limit (about 1.2 G) that's the same for any bike.

The advantage of the fat long torque curve of the Buell is fewer shifts, while the extra horsepower of the peaky bikes beats the Buell on the fast straights. Overall balance, setup and design are probably more important.

In any case, we really don't know all that much about the power and torque curves of the actual racing bikes... or do we?

 

[Coldrider]

That lapped traffic is the privateers who do not have factory support and, consequently, the big budget backing them. So they are on bikes down around 20 hp compared to the factory bikes while also using the suspension and tires that they can afford. Factory riders have their choice of tire and suspension settings which get altered to fit each specific track. It's a lot like bringing a knife to a gun fight, but the privateers at least make a go of it anyway for the sport rather than the money.

 

[Coldrider]

I'll have to argue the point on the R1 needing to be at 9000 rpm to make good power. The stock R1 that I had an opportunity to ride pulled hard in all six gears from 25mph. Comparing the R1 motor to a Buell motor is like comparing apples to oranges. While they weren't in Buell tune, the modified Harley's that I have ridden pulled decently in any gear, but not with the fierceness of the R1.

 

[PsychoBueller]

I ride a Buell (The Harley that Zigs), but I am put off by your "ricer" comment. This seems like blatant racism to me. Enough is enough. Did you know that Honda and Kawasaki build many of their bikes in the USA? I bet those assembly line workers in Marysville, OH and Lincoln, NE would have a thing or two to say to you. It's time to grow up people! The world is going global. Check out the accessories in your local H-D dealer. Those "real steel" parts are made in TAIWAN!!!!!

There is no reason to say what you said unless you just don't like people whose eyes look different from yours. Get real!

 

[PsychoBueller]

Re: A rather selective retirement..

It's funny though, that Harleys only compete against each other on the drag strip. How about a competitive bike to play with the big boys?