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Re: Time for Harley to invest in the next generation

Valid point, seruzawa - for those focused purely on price/performance. I think most of us purchase a particular bike for many other reasons as well. It's what I call the "ownership experience", or that "visceral pride" you feel while riding, looking at, cleaning, or maintaining your chosen bike.

Longride - I respect your choice of bike. Can you do the same? I am growing very weary of your blanket denigration of the sport bike crowd - speak for yourself; not for me. By the way, I have a one-word retort to your second sentence: "Buell".
 

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Re: Time for Harley to invest in the next generation

I am not asking for Harley to make Squid/replica racer bikes. In fact the reason I picked the ZX-6R over the others was comfront. I would love to buy an American sport bike. I hesitate to use the word sport maybe high performance is better, with a competitive engine. Buell has some great ideas on what makes an enjoyable bike. I don't think it would take $1000.00 more to get there. Heck Buells are overpriced now $10,000 for something that has performance less than a 600. Frankly, right now I would use $10,000 and buy a Honda Interceptor with bags and ABS.

As far as having record sales and earinings in a faultering economny no execuses thing. Hey that must mean there are still plenty of affulent boomers who haven't bought a Harley yet. That's all period. I'll bet the age of the new Harley as actually risen not dropped. Unless Harley moves agressively to market to the 20-35 crowd in 10 years Harley with have a squandered an opportunity. If Buell put out a family (Sport, Naked, Touring) of 100 hp bikes for $8000-10000 with an engine like the TL1000, they would be dominating the 20-35 age group market. In other words all they need is a better engine for the new Firebolt, Lighting, and the soon to be announced Touring model (lower pegs and hard bags) A 3 year warrranty would be great too.
 

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Do you really want to spend your hard earned cash on a Sportster when you could have a superior product like the Honda Shadow or V-Star or Vulcan or ....????

I road the Sportser and then a Shadow. Shadow was superior in every way.
 

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Which Harley does 11 sec 1/4 miles? I am just curious cause my MOtorcylist doesn't list any.

Good point about the dealers. Hey that is how the free market works right. Hope you are right about Buell. There is a lot of pinned up demand for an American Sportbike and the Bolt is close but not there yet.
 

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Super Duper Mod Man
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Re: Time for Harley to invest in the next generation

Somehow you missed the point badly. Yes there are numerous complaints about Goldwings running hot and overheating. Glad yours isn't one. I had a 97 TL also. Yes they should have had many recalls, but only 2 were done. tank slapping and the gas tank gasket. Recalls are at least a mfgs. willingness to put things right. I never said it was "better" per se, but having owned many Japanese marques that REFUSED to admit a fault I would say it's "better" in some respects. Agree? About the TwinCam bearing problem. Harley didn't have the engine numbers for the ones that had the bad batch of bearings. So they will make good on any that go bad for the lifetime of the engine. How will I feel about getting a total engine rebuild at maybe 50,000 miles for free? Pretty good I would suspect. If I was on a long trip? Well there is no guarantee your bike will make it either.
 

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Re: Time for Harley to invest in the next generation

I haven't "degenerated" anyone or any bike. Please copy and paste a post where I did so and there was not an attack first. I like most bikes just fine. I own 2 Harleys, one Honda and one Kawasaki. Does that make you feel better? I also don't trash one at the expense of the other. Sportbikes are fine. I own one. A 2000 ZX9 Kaw. It's good for what it does. It isn't the "be all end all". Can we agree on that? By the way I never spoke for you ever. Where did you get the idea that I did? I never remember mentioning your name in any post I ever made. If I am mistaken then I am truly sorry.
 

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Re: Time for Harley to invest in the next generation

Yawn, TwinCam is old news and since you didn't get what Harley did and why then I guess you can believe what you want. I own an FL, and the alignment is easily checkable and serviceable by anyone. Do you own one? Why would MCN need to "publish" these things when they are in the service manual? Maybe the guy that crashed didn't know how to ride. Is that a possibility? Since they sell about 5 times as many bikes as BMW, would they tend to get more complaints? Harleys need riders, not owners. If you can't or are unwilling to check and service your bike or have it done correctly then Honda is the one for you. Appliance like reliability and lifespan.
 

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Re: Time for Harley to invest in the next generation

"I am not asking for Harley to make Squid/replica racer bikes. "

Good because they never will.

"Frankly, right now I would use $10,000 and buy a Honda Interceptor with bags and ABS."

I think that is really what you should buy.

"Hey that must mean there are still plenty of affulent boomers who haven't bought a Harley yet. That's all period."

Exactly the market they target right?

"Unless Harley moves agressively to market to the 20-35 crowd in 10 years Harley with have a squandered an opportunity."

In 10 years won't they be the 30 to 45 year old group? New boomers without a Harley? See how that works?? LOL

"If Buell put out a family (Sport, Naked, Touring) of 100 hp bikes for $8000-10000 with an engine like the TL1000, they would be dominating the 20-35 age group market."

Sales show the TL1000 sold like crap. Isn't even made anymore I believe. Some "market domination" eh?
 

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I didn't say HD's were crap, I said the whole " THE MOTOR COMPANY" crap, meaning the Spirit in the wind, one true motorcycle, harleys best ***** the rest nonesense that gets so tedious after a while, I personaly think harleys are pretty cool bikes, I don't think they are the best thing since sliced bread, but I do think as a cruiser they're the best total package, I owned and rebuilt and rode the wheels off an 80' amf shovel for quite a few years till I got into sportbikes, and the next bike I get will probably be a Dyna superglide, but I'll still keep my suzuki for a play bike, I don't doubt that you can buy one at MSRP if you look hard enough, I just don't think it should be such a big deal, if the japanese and europeans can stick close to list why can't Harley?
 

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Re: Time for Harley to invest in the next generation

My money is on the Goldwing! Both Rider and MCN recently completed long-term, 36000 mile tests on them with glowing praise. Cycle World in the past 6 months just completed a long term test on the Dynaglide Convertible (I think), well, long term is a bit of a stretch seeing that they may have just passed 10,000 miles. They had the usual stuff from the new, improved Harley, oil leaks, electrical failures and the instrument panel MELTING!

As for the alignment problem that a reader mentioned, part of the problem was that there was not a SINGLE Harley dealership that could make the bikes ride straight. So either they are unaware of instructions in the owners' manuals (highly unlikely) or there is a problem. Instead of discounting the article in MCN, try reading it first .
 

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Re: Time for Harley to invest in the next generation

My counterpoints. [*]. In 10 years current 20-35 years will not automatically buy cruisers like some mindless salmon that has to spawn . [*]The TL1000 engine was great, marketing sucked, the bikes suspension rear shock sucked.[*] Ducati 90 degree liquid cooled twins seem to sell OK Like Bill Clinton would say "Its the economy er engine stupid. "

[*]It's persumptious to assume that Harley will inherent a market when they become middle aged
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
longride has turned into the KPaulCook of Old!

First: longride, I wish you could just let it all go, you're an intelligent person, let the sportbike crowd deride the cruiser crowd and vice-versa. You're not going to change anyone's ideas with references, statistics, personal experiences or condecending "my $hI+ don't stink" attitude, even if you are right!. Sure, I can see defending your self if someone make an incorrect personal comment about you but jeez, you've responded to almost every comment on the board, and you're coming off sounding like Kpaul did before JB slammed him and made him his biaaatch. Oh, and Kpaul, I enjoy your posts so much more now that you’ve changed, but earlier, I was hoping you’d break your fingers and never be able to type again.

Second: Everybody - "The big 4" makes great motorcycles. "The Motor Company" makes great motorcycles. "The Italians" make great motorcycles. "The Brits" make great motorcycles. "The Americans make great motorcycles." "The Chinese" make cheap rip-offs of great motorcycles, but maybe someday they'll make great motorcycles too.

Third: None of them are perfect. All of them appeal to somebody, some appeal to all, and each appeals to somebody. There, I think I covered that. Don't say some other bike is better than mine, or mine is worse than some other model, 'cause guess what: I bought exactly what I love, and it's "the best."

Heck, I love to ride my dad's cruiser, my cousins Dual-purpose, my dirtbike (need more dirtbike stuff here...) my roommates old scooter (the thing would do 75!), my sport touring bike, pretty much anything with two wheels and some sort of internal combustion engine.

Lastly: Racing isn't a waste of money, any more than health care is a waste of money (you all gonna die someday), flying to the moon is a waste of money (do you like your GPS, Satellite TV, Cable, Live news feeds from the other side of the world etc.?), or your computer is a waste of money (you can exist without it, people have done it for millions of years). It may be a waste of money for Harley (they'd never win), it may be a waste of money for longride, but that doesn't make it a waste of money, period.

luvmyvfr
 

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Geez, enough is enough. Love to ride and ride what you love. I am sick of Harley bashing and "squid" bashing.



It doesn't matter what you ride. It's your attitude that matters. All bikes have their good, bad and ugly qualities. But why in the hell do some of us insist on straping our egos to a piece of metal?



We ride because it's fun. How we acheive our level of fun may be different than the guy on the Ducati or the cruiser, but the goal is the same.



I don't know about you guys but I would own "one of each" if I had the funds. Every bike has its own distinct personality and voice, and the feeling you get from riding different bikes is great. Instead of knocking a Harley or a sportbike, you should hook up with somebody who owns somthing you don't - and try riding it for an afternoon.



It's great to see an American company succeeding in our economy, especially a bike company with a history as rich as Harley Davidson's.



I own and ride 2 sport bikes, a ZX12R and a Honda VFR, but think that Harley has done more than any other manufacturer to keep motorcycling alive in the U.S. It just pains me that they are no longer part of the AMA superbike program, or in the FIM superbike program, they could create alot more enthusiasm for motorcycle racing here in the U.S. if they would develop a viable racing machine.
 

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Re: Time for Harley to invest in the next generation

Longride,

The FL problem wasn't reported by one rider, if I recall correctly this subject holds the record at MCN for most letters and E-mails received one a subject, a large percentage complaining about the problem and the lack of support from their dealer in getting it resolved. Do you consider it OK to build a chassis for years that is borderline unsafe? Do you think it is OK to assemble that chassis so poorly that it moves from borderline to simply unsafe when the customer receives it? I simply can't understand anybody thinking that is acceptable, not in cheap moped, much less in a bike that will cost $20K or more before it gets out the dealer's door. As has been pointed out, every manufacture has problems but I can see any other company being defended for designing and building a bike that poorly. If Honda (or Kawasaki, Triumph, BMW or anybody else) tried that they would be crucified.

As far as the twin cam problem, the point was a response to your statement that HD "Harley at least owns up to a problem and fixes it". In the case of the twin cam problem HD forced their customers to ride bikes with a serious problem and did not fix them until they broke, often stranding HD customers far from home. Several rider wrote to MCN saying they either paid to have their bikes fixed or stopped taking trips until the bike failed and could be fixed under warranty. That is not, in my opinion, "owning up" to a problem. The only thing I can agree with is that BMW looks pretty bad given the number of Harley and Hondas Vs. the number of BMWs on the road.

I'm sorry, based on some of your earlier posts I really though you were a Harley rider who was aware of the rest of the world and not blinded by loyalty to a corporation that seems to have fooled a lot of people into thinking it cares about its customers any more than any other corporation.

Sorry for the mistake,

SlowBear
 

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Re: Time for Harley to invest in the next generation

Didn't all those same mags have "glowing praise" for the 97 TL1000 too? It was "Bike of the Year" in more than one. I wonder how a shadetree mechanic like me has my FL in perfect alignment. And since it just passed 15,000 miles I guess the oil leaks and melting should have started already. Articles and people are quite often wrong, and I take them with a grain of salt. I am in touch with many, many Harley owners and dealers, so I know what they are. Since I am on many Wing boards still because I owned a 96, I know what the owners are complaining about.
 

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Re: Time for Harley to invest in the next generation

Since I own, ride, and service Harleys and other makes for about 25 years, know hundreds of riders, and stay in touch with honest dealers, I would be aware of any current problem long before you would. How many have you owned? I own an 01 FL, the exact model you are talking about. Please don't tell me it is "borderline unsafe", because you don't know what you are talking about frankly. When I bought my new Harley I got about 5 customer forms at different times to fill out as to the quality, price, dealer, looks, condition, etc. Five of em. That would mean that Harley is very interested in everything about the bike and buying experience. I got none from Suzuki, none from Honda, none from Kawasaki. Not interested. As for being aware, I owned a 97 TL1000 that had clutch slipping problems from the factory, tank-slapping, frame breakage, leaky gas tanks(twice), and bucked like a bronco until I put a $250 power commander on it. That was the "Bike of the Year" in many magazines. I had a 1980 AMF Sportster that had more reliability. So tell me again who has who fooled?
 

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Re: longride has turned into the KPaulCook of Old!

First: I was one of the ones that changes KPaul so now you can enjoy his posts! I am not trying to change anyone's mind, just posting as I like. Is that still legal?

Second: I put "perspective" in all the makes and just let people know there is another point of view. If you don't like that, it doesn't bother me, and I wil post anyway.

Third: Yep, I have neer said any "type" of bike was better than another. Where have I posted such?

Fourth: It's a waste of money for a company to race what they don't produce. Harley doesn't make a sportbike so why race one? Whick of the big four race flattrack? None. Why? Waste of money for them. Oh, by the way, motorcycle racing has nothing to do with health care, flying to the moon, or computers. Thanks for your interest.
 
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