Helmet Law Repeal Stats
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Natural selection
I am a Christian, so I shouldn't say this, but if people choose to do something so stupid as not wearing a helmet, let them. The way I see it is that it's one less idiot in the world.
I know this is wrong, but....... it's what I truly feel.
I am a Christian, so I shouldn't say this, but if people choose to do something so stupid as not wearing a helmet, let them. The way I see it is that it's one less idiot in the world.
I know this is wrong, but....... it's what I truly feel.
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18 Posts
You jerkies really know how to spoil some fun, don't you. I guess I have to retire my pudding basin for a full face.
Re: GRRRRR....
"Ok, let's suppose you DON'T go around hitting people with your car. Wouldn't you and I both be better off if you paid some attention to where you were driving?"
What kind of logic is that? Accidents happen, bud, and car drivers suck everywhere. If you get into an accident and get killed, who gives a rat's ass who's fault it was. You're dead. In a driving utopia where mistakes did not happen, we wouldn't need bumpers, seat belts, or even good brakes. Until then there is no smart way to argue not to wear a helmet.
"Ok, let's suppose you DON'T go around hitting people with your car. Wouldn't you and I both be better off if you paid some attention to where you were driving?"
What kind of logic is that? Accidents happen, bud, and car drivers suck everywhere. If you get into an accident and get killed, who gives a rat's ass who's fault it was. You're dead. In a driving utopia where mistakes did not happen, we wouldn't need bumpers, seat belts, or even good brakes. Until then there is no smart way to argue not to wear a helmet.
If you can come up with a good statistical correlation between going helmet-less and costing taxpayers/society in general extra money, then people not wearing helmets should pay more for their insurance. However, I think if you want to ride without a helmet, you should be able to (just don't get any brains on me when you go down).
I wouldn't ride to the mail box without a helmet (and it's at the end of my sidewalk), but I think adults should be able to make that choice for themselves.
I support helmet laws for minors, but once you're an adult, I think it should be your call. As long as people have to be fully responsible for all aspects of their choices, they should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others.
It gets very sticky though-- what of the family on welfare or the kids in a foster-parent program because their parent or parents caved in their heads riding without a helmet? It's intractable. However, I think we in America should err on the side of personal freedom when faced with a complex situation like this one.
-Tom
I wouldn't ride to the mail box without a helmet (and it's at the end of my sidewalk), but I think adults should be able to make that choice for themselves.
I support helmet laws for minors, but once you're an adult, I think it should be your call. As long as people have to be fully responsible for all aspects of their choices, they should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others.
It gets very sticky though-- what of the family on welfare or the kids in a foster-parent program because their parent or parents caved in their heads riding without a helmet? It's intractable. However, I think we in America should err on the side of personal freedom when faced with a complex situation like this one.
-Tom
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well after every ride my helmut is consumed with bug and guts and rock chips, me I'll never understand anyone wanting to ride without one. But for arguments sake how many head injuries do we have in automobile accidents. let some legislature try and pass a law where car riders must wear helmuts and see how far it gets. its like the seatbelt laws, I don't want to wear them. I hate them, but we all take chances in life and to a certain degree it should be up to us as to the extent of chance we are willing to take. Skiers. Skydivers, Mountain climbers and on and on, hikers not armed against potential dangerous animals. The point is what amount of risk can you live with and should you be able to make the choice, in this country I think so. IMHO
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67 Posts
Would you play football without one? I doubt it!
Just a thought here but the average direct collision in a head to head tackle in a football might have a combined speed of 30 mph. Would you do this without a helmet?
Now would you do 60/80/200 mph on a bike without one. Would you drive bare headed and bare ass through the forest without one.
Would you roadrace on a track without one? Even though the track is not filled with guard rails, telephone poles, and idiots driving cars and talking on cell phones cutting you off?
If you ride without a helmet you're a moron! If you ride without a helmet AND no proper insurance then you're a moron who is going to end up costing me and the rest of the taxpayers money to pay for you're drool cup!
Just a thought here but the average direct collision in a head to head tackle in a football might have a combined speed of 30 mph. Would you do this without a helmet?
Now would you do 60/80/200 mph on a bike without one. Would you drive bare headed and bare ass through the forest without one.
Would you roadrace on a track without one? Even though the track is not filled with guard rails, telephone poles, and idiots driving cars and talking on cell phones cutting you off?
If you ride without a helmet you're a moron! If you ride without a helmet AND no proper insurance then you're a moron who is going to end up costing me and the rest of the taxpayers money to pay for you're drool cup!
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My understanding of this photograph is that the subject had a firecracker explode in his mouth. Alcohol was evidently involved, too.
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230 Posts
Re: GRRRRR....
Hello?
Read the original post. The writer was about how much more it costs HIM to hit a helmetless rider instead of one with a lid.
That's not a reason to mandate helmet use.
I was not arguing not to wear a helmet. Was there anything in my post that sounded like an argument not to wear a helmet? No.
Learn how to read, dingleberry.
I was just pointing out that the original poster's argument was that riders should be REQUIRED to wear helmets, not for their own safety, but so that he personally wouldn't be liable for their injuries when he ran over them.
That's like saying that everyone should be required to wear bullet-proof vests so that HE won't be in as much trouble when he accidentally shoots them. Sure, we would all be safer if we wore bullet-proof vests all day long, but it's intrusive, and it doesn't address the main point that this SOB shouldn't be shooting at citizens in the first place.
I CHOOSE to wear a Snell rated full face helmet, Aerostich, boots and proper gloves EVERY time I ride my bike. My choice shouldn't give the original poster carte blanche to hit me with his car. I think he ought to treat me as though I weren't protected, regardless of what my state requires me to wear.
So, smart-ass with poor reading skills, do you wear the level of protective equipment that I do? If you do, then that's an achievement of wisdom far beyond your reading comprehension skills.
Hello?
Read the original post. The writer was about how much more it costs HIM to hit a helmetless rider instead of one with a lid.
That's not a reason to mandate helmet use.
I was not arguing not to wear a helmet. Was there anything in my post that sounded like an argument not to wear a helmet? No.
Learn how to read, dingleberry.
I was just pointing out that the original poster's argument was that riders should be REQUIRED to wear helmets, not for their own safety, but so that he personally wouldn't be liable for their injuries when he ran over them.
That's like saying that everyone should be required to wear bullet-proof vests so that HE won't be in as much trouble when he accidentally shoots them. Sure, we would all be safer if we wore bullet-proof vests all day long, but it's intrusive, and it doesn't address the main point that this SOB shouldn't be shooting at citizens in the first place.
I CHOOSE to wear a Snell rated full face helmet, Aerostich, boots and proper gloves EVERY time I ride my bike. My choice shouldn't give the original poster carte blanche to hit me with his car. I think he ought to treat me as though I weren't protected, regardless of what my state requires me to wear.
So, smart-ass with poor reading skills, do you wear the level of protective equipment that I do? If you do, then that's an achievement of wisdom far beyond your reading comprehension skills.
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154 Posts
This should really be a non-issue. I, personally, wear a helmet. Aside from the obvious safety issue, much more comfortable than being pelted with bugs, rain, cigarettes, ashes, wind, rain, and all the other road debris. In addition to all this, the wind noise, watery eyes, and the wind burn. I can't imagine riding without. Think of taking a long trip in your car, at 70mph, with your head sticking out the window the whole way. Not very appealing, eh? If all this appeals to you, more power to you, brother, and good luck. I'll never stand in the way of your personal freedom. HOWEVER, do not ask for me to pay for your medical bills, or subsidise the cost of your insurance. It is very easy to prove statistically that there are more, and more severe injuries recieved by going helmetless. Just as the evil insurance companies are allowed to charge extra for teenage male drivers (paid my dues many years ago), and smokers, they should also be allowed to charge more for helmetless riders. And if you have no insurance, Joe Public shouldn't have to pay for YOUR choice. Emergency rooms should be allowed to refuse service to the uninsured, as long as it's coming out of OUR wallet. There, wasn't that simple?
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230 Posts
All good points.
I would offer another couple of factors to be taken into consideration, fatalities per mile travelled, and traffic density.
I think that you will find that there are many more good riding weather weekend days in some years than there are in others. 5 rainy weekends in a summer would reduce the total number of motorcycle miles travelled by a significant percentage. Less miles travelled usually translates to less opportunity to get your melon crushed by a semi.
Also, taffic density on rural and urban roads has climbed sharply. Since the early 70's, we have increased the total number of miles of paved road in the states by about 50%. The total number of licensed vehicles however has quadrupled. That means there are more than twice as many cars on any given mile of paved road today than there was a couple decades ago. Denser traffic means more collisions.
To be completely fair, any statistics would have to take these factors into account.
I would offer another couple of factors to be taken into consideration, fatalities per mile travelled, and traffic density.
I think that you will find that there are many more good riding weather weekend days in some years than there are in others. 5 rainy weekends in a summer would reduce the total number of motorcycle miles travelled by a significant percentage. Less miles travelled usually translates to less opportunity to get your melon crushed by a semi.
Also, taffic density on rural and urban roads has climbed sharply. Since the early 70's, we have increased the total number of miles of paved road in the states by about 50%. The total number of licensed vehicles however has quadrupled. That means there are more than twice as many cars on any given mile of paved road today than there was a couple decades ago. Denser traffic means more collisions.
To be completely fair, any statistics would have to take these factors into account.
ABATE in Massacusetts is working on repealing the helmet law here. Most of the action is forced by the fact that most harley riders are riding with beanie novelty helmets here in the state and are getting pulled over and ticketed for an illegal helmet. Seeing how the court system has no legal definition of a legal helmet all you need is a dot sticker. Still the state police write tickets. We know it's more harashment than trying to save lives.
My biggest problem with open face helmets is the parachute effect with the wind pulling on the helmet over 45mph without a windshield. Full face helmets on a slow ride down mainstreet on a 90F hot summer day is not fun.
On the Duc the full face goes on because I ride the bike with sport in mind. I also geek out in full leathers, race boots and gloves. I look like a power ranger but I point to the rash on the left side from a past low side and smile. Ever notice how trends force saftey better than laws. No one rides a bicycle now without a helmet. It's too uncool.
Ever notice that kid's on sport-bikes spend $500 on a helmet and wear a nylon windbreaker and sweat pants. HD riders spend $500 on leather jacket, pants and gloves and no helmet.
My biggest problem with open face helmets is the parachute effect with the wind pulling on the helmet over 45mph without a windshield. Full face helmets on a slow ride down mainstreet on a 90F hot summer day is not fun.
On the Duc the full face goes on because I ride the bike with sport in mind. I also geek out in full leathers, race boots and gloves. I look like a power ranger but I point to the rash on the left side from a past low side and smile. Ever notice how trends force saftey better than laws. No one rides a bicycle now without a helmet. It's too uncool.
Ever notice that kid's on sport-bikes spend $500 on a helmet and wear a nylon windbreaker and sweat pants. HD riders spend $500 on leather jacket, pants and gloves and no helmet.
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230 Posts
YOU have chosen to take this scenario to explain that if the state had required the guy to wear a helmet, it wouldn't be costing you as a tax-payer.
Wouldn't your interests be better served if this guy had insurance?
So maybe the state shouldn't be so concerned about requiring helmet use, but they should require proof of health coverage.
Think about it. Your neghbor, wearing a dandy helmet, slides into a guard-rail and slices off his legs, spilling his vital organs all of the embankment. He has no insurance, so you and I end up paying for his surgeries, hospital stays and eventual rehab treatments. That costs us money. But he had a helmet on!
Let's re-run the scenario, except your neighbor has insurance and doesn't wear a helmet. He hits the guard-rail with his noggin, and becomes a life-long, incurable Democrat. Sucks to be him, but his insurance picks up the majority of the tab. Doesn't cost us a thing.
Which scenario is better for society?
Wouldn't your interests be better served if this guy had insurance?
So maybe the state shouldn't be so concerned about requiring helmet use, but they should require proof of health coverage.
Think about it. Your neghbor, wearing a dandy helmet, slides into a guard-rail and slices off his legs, spilling his vital organs all of the embankment. He has no insurance, so you and I end up paying for his surgeries, hospital stays and eventual rehab treatments. That costs us money. But he had a helmet on!
Let's re-run the scenario, except your neighbor has insurance and doesn't wear a helmet. He hits the guard-rail with his noggin, and becomes a life-long, incurable Democrat. Sucks to be him, but his insurance picks up the majority of the tab. Doesn't cost us a thing.
Which scenario is better for society?
When I was much younger, I had the occassion to do a surprise endo after hitting a hidden culvert in the right of way in high grass. Upon examination of my helmet afterwards, I found a HUGE gash which if it had been my head would no doubt caused me much grief. Or perhaps none at all if it killed me. There is a fate worse than death in a motorcycle accident, and that is to be left with brain damage and/or permanent disability
Do your self and all of your family a favor. Wear a good full face helmet and as much protective gear as you can get on.
Do your self and all of your family a favor. Wear a good full face helmet and as much protective gear as you can get on.
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29 Posts
Re: Natural selection
Unfortunately, when than idiot becomes a vegetable because he wasn't wearing a helmet, natural selection doesn't do its thing. He ends up getting parked in a hospital bed and after he has bankrupted his family, becomes a ward of the state. Too bad society would never permit the live-free types to sign away their rights to endless medical care.
Unfortunately, when than idiot becomes a vegetable because he wasn't wearing a helmet, natural selection doesn't do its thing. He ends up getting parked in a hospital bed and after he has bankrupted his family, becomes a ward of the state. Too bad society would never permit the live-free types to sign away their rights to endless medical care.
I don't know of a good measure of traffic density. Miles traveled is available nationally but not by state. Registrations was the only measure of exposure provided in the NHTSA evaluation.
I argue, however, that for the present purpose--comparing changes year-to-year within a state--registrations is a satisfactory measure of exposure.
I argue, however, that for the present purpose--comparing changes year-to-year within a state--registrations is a satisfactory measure of exposure.
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Re: GRRRRR....
If you read my post thoroughly, you might have noticed that I mentioned that I do wear my helmet. I wear my helmet, because of some of the reasons that you mentioned above, but mainly is I like my head right where it is and in the condition it is in. That and the fact I trust very few of the idiots out there driving cars.
you mention peer pressure? I find this hard to believe in the area that I ride in. The majority of sportbike riders DO wear them and this is a no helmet law state. On occassion you will see a few without them, but that is thier own decision. Most people that have ridden for any amount of time have laid thier bike down or have been pulled out in front of by a car and know the repercussions of thier actions.
I am by no means stating that it is smart not to wear a helmet. What I stated is that the governement has no place in this decision. When you get in your car with a buddy, do you tell him to put his seatbelt on? If you get pulled over for some reason, if the passenger is not wearing his seatbelt does the driver get the ticket? no the passenger does. Its his decision, his responsibiblity. It is a proven point that seatbelts do save lives and so do helmets, but is that the governements decision to make. This individual is making his own choice, and is responsible for his own choice. If you would like to take this argument to the extreme, then you can state that all motorcycles are unsafe, that motorcycle riders are more apt to be injured in an accident, that the medical costs of those accidents are more expensive, and thus the government should mandate that they are not legal to be ridden at all. This may not be a great scenario for this argument, but I think you might get the point.
"Helmet laws are an issue of social responsibibity, not individual rights" This clause really catches my eye. For some reason I forgot that the US was a socialist country? Forgot we were not the land of the free! This is even beter for us motorcyle riders!!! WITH SOCIALISM, COMES SOCIALIZED MEDICINE! thus destroying your whole argument about insurance companies, insurance costs, you having to pay for my skull as you run me down in your car, etc, etc etc....
Those of us that have experience on a motorcycle know the importance of our safety equipment. We don't need to be told! I am truley sorry to hear that the riders in your area do not wear them due to peer pressure, but that speaks of the intelligence level and maturity of the riders in your area. "I don't want to be the ony full-face geek on the street" ???????? MAke your own decision and show some intelligence. You obviously live in a free state, make your own decison, your peers don't have to live with your decision or the repercussions or your decision, YOU DO!
Motorcycle riders should be able to make thier own decisions in regards to this issue, they might be poor decisions, but they are THIER decisions.
If you read my post thoroughly, you might have noticed that I mentioned that I do wear my helmet. I wear my helmet, because of some of the reasons that you mentioned above, but mainly is I like my head right where it is and in the condition it is in. That and the fact I trust very few of the idiots out there driving cars.
you mention peer pressure? I find this hard to believe in the area that I ride in. The majority of sportbike riders DO wear them and this is a no helmet law state. On occassion you will see a few without them, but that is thier own decision. Most people that have ridden for any amount of time have laid thier bike down or have been pulled out in front of by a car and know the repercussions of thier actions.
I am by no means stating that it is smart not to wear a helmet. What I stated is that the governement has no place in this decision. When you get in your car with a buddy, do you tell him to put his seatbelt on? If you get pulled over for some reason, if the passenger is not wearing his seatbelt does the driver get the ticket? no the passenger does. Its his decision, his responsibiblity. It is a proven point that seatbelts do save lives and so do helmets, but is that the governements decision to make. This individual is making his own choice, and is responsible for his own choice. If you would like to take this argument to the extreme, then you can state that all motorcycles are unsafe, that motorcycle riders are more apt to be injured in an accident, that the medical costs of those accidents are more expensive, and thus the government should mandate that they are not legal to be ridden at all. This may not be a great scenario for this argument, but I think you might get the point.
"Helmet laws are an issue of social responsibibity, not individual rights" This clause really catches my eye. For some reason I forgot that the US was a socialist country? Forgot we were not the land of the free! This is even beter for us motorcyle riders!!! WITH SOCIALISM, COMES SOCIALIZED MEDICINE! thus destroying your whole argument about insurance companies, insurance costs, you having to pay for my skull as you run me down in your car, etc, etc etc....
Those of us that have experience on a motorcycle know the importance of our safety equipment. We don't need to be told! I am truley sorry to hear that the riders in your area do not wear them due to peer pressure, but that speaks of the intelligence level and maturity of the riders in your area. "I don't want to be the ony full-face geek on the street" ???????? MAke your own decision and show some intelligence. You obviously live in a free state, make your own decison, your peers don't have to live with your decision or the repercussions or your decision, YOU DO!
Motorcycle riders should be able to make thier own decisions in regards to this issue, they might be poor decisions, but they are THIER decisions.
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