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Helmet Laws and Tiered Licensing?

16556 Views 124 Replies 37 Participants Last post by  HawgTied
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Re: What's most important

Yeah, the repub contestants should be especially frightening this time around.

I would respect it all a lot more if the just had a bare knuckles boxing match. Last man/woman standing wins. Cheaper too.
More California Statistics

Fatalities per registered motorcycle may be of some value. IMHO the best measure is fatality per mile ridden as that is the fun/utility factor and fatalities are part of the price paid. If you kill the fun/utility by significantly reducing the miles ridden you could easily have a situation where there are more fatalities per mile ridden yet the overall fatalities are down. Not really a success unless an outright ban is on your list of solutions.

If we have an outright ban (removing ALL the fun) on motorcycles in the US we can only approach reducing the total annual traffic fatality rate by 10%. The solution obviously lies elsewhere.

A lot of folks have the idea "that if it saves one life" we ought to pass restrictions and laws. While they are focused on ultra-fine-tuning the law in an area where insane perfection (banning motorcycles) can only approach saving 10% of the tens of thousands that die every year I suppose the tens of thousands will just have to continue to die.

The California chart at:

shows an increasing number of fatalities for CA motorcyclists starting with a dip to just below 200 in 1998 and increasing to about 260 in year 2000. At we find the following motorcyclist fatality numbers:

2001 299

2002 324

2003 383

2004 432

2005 469

I don't think they repealed the no-choice helmet law in CA but I would suspect overall miles ridden during this period of increased fatalities is trending up.

Another fascinating tidbit from the NHTSA link above is that it appears that 62% of Fatally Injured Passenger Vehicle Occupants (PVO) were wearing restraints. It would appear that MORE PVOs are dieing in California while wearing seat-belts. Sounds like seat belts are killing people in California but the devil is in the details. Since observed restraint use is around 92% (I am sure no one buckles up right before being observed ;) then approximately 8% of the PVOs non-restraint users are responsible for 38% of the fatalities. The bottom line is we need all the data we can get and then we need to be responsible adults and make our own choices.

Insurance is a risk pool and companies should use all available data to determine that an 18 year old on a 'Busa with a spanking new permit ain't gonna be able to afford the insurance. When one company quotes me 3x the premium as another for identical coverage the insurance business isn't even in the ballpark of using all the available data and making accurate risk calculations. Insurance like training can play a role in our motorcycling safety, survival and enjoyment. But quality training alone in the passenger vehicle operator world would dwarf ANYTHING that can be suggested for motorcycling up to and including an outright ban of motorcycles.

Share the road with a deer – that's PETA's stand.
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Excellent post!

Good use of fact/data.

Won't make the slightest difference either.
birkenstock wearing BMW riders do lawn maintenance, and their solar powered Toros have GPS navigation and autopilot. They also wear their modular helmets while cutting the grass. Everyone should be like them.
Wow, I sure hear a lot of bickering about whether goverment should or shouldn't "help" us stay alive and make the right choices. What I'm not hearing is what any of us can/would do to stop some noob from shredding himself and the machine that his mommy gave him. What happened to taking the keys away from the drunk driver "as a friend" rather than waiting for the stupid SOB take someone out and get the law involved. I won't ride with anyone that refuses to wear a helmet. I will take away thier keys if they drink on a ride. And you will be treated like diseased s***** if you start screwing around on public roads doing stupid things. (that's for off road hehehe) Point is; I don't like insurance rates, I don't like government mandates, and I don't like stupid bikers. Are you doing your part to stop idiots, or will you wait until the government has to do it for you.....and they will. -- Ride safe, Ride long, Have fun! --
Next, they'll be regulating spelling and grammar!
Re: Min. Wage

Let's just give everyone a million dollars! Then EVERYONE can retire.
Van William Washburn. What is your name exactly anyway?
Never meant to impugn you as a coward seruzawa. I was merely trying to point out to the masses of nanny staters on this site that there are alternatives to big government. Did you read any of the models for anarchy on lewrockwell? BTW I would never compare 214s with anyone who has a set of double Ds. What are they anyway? Van
Re: Excellent post!

Aw shucks. I know it won't matter.

It's just cheap therapy and educational for me. :)
Every mandated incremental restriction on our lives is always sold to us by the paternalists as a moderate action that no reasonable person would object to. You wanna gulp down trans fatty acid, stuff yourself with free radicals, or ride helmetless, go ahead. I really don't care. Sure, the rest of us will pay the freight for these folks as we always have. It is what it is - a societal surcharge of sorts. As for tiered licenses, how will that restrain the 4 criminally reckless fools on their ZFRGXRGPK's who lane-splitted their way past me at 100 MPH on NY's Sagtikos Pkwy last week? We all need to face the fact that it won't! What tiering will do is anger and frustrate with arbitrary regs and protocols the law-abiding bro who's in love with a certain 600 and can finally afford it, but is only "certified" to operate a 599 or under. Can U imagine instituting the same kind of standards on the cage-driver population? There would be a national revolution. But, we are willing to inflict this on ourselves? Quite simply, we can not give any bureaucrat this kind of power. When we accept human nature for what it is and understand that laws are not obeyed by those they are written to control, we will be closer to realistically addressing this issue. Pending that, these discussions will go on ad nauseam.
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It seems like every time something goes wrong with administrative oversight someone says it was just an oversight.
Re: What's most important

That would be Pat Robertson of course, possibly my Favorite Jesus Freak, he's a riot! Did you know he could leg press 2000 lbs? Yoda could kick the [email protected] outta us!

Catch the front running candidate for CHANGE yelling with a yelling and cheering crowd and then have the crowd noise electronically removed making him look like an idiot? Play continuously for days on ALL news channels until the guy drops out and the "fix" can be on, again?

Now the BAD news... better make that February '09... maybe we shouldn't pay them to campaign for their next job until, say, three months before the election? Be a lot easier to make that case if anything of Major Importance was going on these days...
Actually, we just have the gardener do the yard for us; he'll use the Toro as a hedge trimmer.
Enough with the Half-Measures

Motorcycles are dangerous. Why nibble around the edges with tiered licensing, helmet laws, and all these other half-measures. Ban motorcycles and you save lives – about 5,000 a year here in the U.S. The motorcycle fatality rate will become zero no matter how you calculate it. Motorcyclists on European and Japanese websites will look at our M/C fatality rates and wonder if such a system would be effective in their unique environments.

From a personal standpoint, a motorcycle ban is probably the only thing that can save me from motorcycle-induced death or serous injury. I already do all the half-measures that others on this forum advocate. I always wear a full-face Snell approved helmet, leathers or armored synthetic riding gear, motorcycle-specific riding boots, and over the wrist gloves. I am meticulous about maintenance. I change my tires when they get to the wear bars. I took the MSF Basic Course (or whatever the Navy called it) in 1976 and the Experienced Riders Course (two-up) a few years ago. I do two or three track days a year. I study the skills columns in the M/C rags and practice, practice, practice. I don’t drink and ride. All this I do, and at any moment some a-hole could blow a stoplight, a truck could throw a recap, or Bambi could fixate on my headlight and my life could come to a brutal, painful, motorcycle-induced end. I know this danger, and yet I am "too stupid" to stop riding on my own. Oh, the tragedy of it all! Please, Big Brother, make me stop!

Want more good arguments to support a motorcycle ban? Just pick any of the above pro-helmet law arguments and substitute the words "motorcycle ban" for "helmet law."

Motorcycles are dangerous.
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I refer you to T.S. Eliot

"I grow old … I grow old …

I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?

I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach... "

We need to be sure we don't suck the juice from the peach before we get to risk having it run down our clothing.
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Re: What's most important

Neither party's front running candidates (announced and otherwise) are worth a damn IMHO. Hope that the circumvention of the Electoral College goes through, Dems/Repubs both have major intrinsic flaws IMO.

Willing to bet calling someone a Neo-Con (P.N.A.C.) will be fighting words soon, in jail or hell. Could just be wishful thinking.

Vonnegut's newest is GOOD.
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