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HOG: Please Fund Buell's New Engine

49K views 253 replies 50 participants last post by  James_Brown 
#1 ·
Have you ever ridden a Buell? What's antique about that engine?
 
#2 ·
Current owner of 2004 Buell XB12S with race kit

As the current owner of a 2004 Buell XB12S with race kit and former owner of a 2001 Buell M2 Cyclone and having ridden my Buell back to back with a Ducati ST3 and Ducati 999 on the race track I have some ideas on this. You have probably read my ravs about how the Ducati’s can truly stay in one gear around the track or down a fav canyon road from speeds of 35 mph to 130 mph, something that is impossible on my Buell but still provide that great V-Twin feeling I still want.

Buell needs a new engine, and yes I hope it would be as unique as the rest of the bike. With that in mind here are some thoughts as to what could happen in my dreams vs what will happen.



Dream:

1. Buell develops an all new V-Twin, something as unique as the Buell motorcycle in which it will reside.

a. A high torque engine with a massive swell of torque from idle to redline.

b. A high horse power engine say 150+

c. A higher revving engine say 10,000 to 12,000 rpm with overrun to stay in one gear down your favorite canyon road.

2. Buell develops a new engine configuration such as a V-3 with the following:

a. High torque from idle to redline.

b. High horse power engine say 160+

c. Higher revving engine say 12,000 to 15,000 rpm with plenty of overrun to truly stay in one gear down your favorite canyon road.

d. Very unique sound to go with the unique bike.

Reality:

1. Buell does nothing more with the engine program.

2. Buell forges on with the same old engine with minor upgrades and calls them a major improvement or

3. Buell comes out with a big block version of the current engine say a Buell XBRR XB Thunderstorm 1340cc engine modified for the street or

4. Buell comes out with an even bigger version of the Buell XBRR XB Thunderstorm 1340cc engine say 1500cc.
 
#4 ·
Doesn't Harley already have a hi-tech engine? One that was developed with (a lot of) help from Porsche? Doesn't it have big HP and just as much torque?



C'mon Harley! Give Buell the V-Rod engine and let's be done with it!
 
#5 ·
So few people take their bike to a track, even if there's one available at all, that sales aren't affected. How many owners of "proper" sportbikes go to the track? About .0001%.



I didn't know that there was some divine guidance on what constitutes a "proper" sportbike. How dare Buell not provide a bike capable of 175mph? How can anyone live with only being able to travel 140mph before being impounded?



Norton would have been surprised to discover that a Commando didn't qualify as a "proper" sportbike. Kawasaki as well would be chagrined to find out that the GPZ500 wasn't a "proper" sportbike.



I'm sure that "Washout" will soon be here to enlighten us.
 
#8 ·
The GMP is right again, GPTB says stay the course.

Despite kbashing, kwhinning, and kconspiracy. The GMP has predicted that Buell sales would be held back by the lack of proper engine. Despite the most definitive account of a actual back to back comparison by gbrummett , a Buell owner with an impeccable reputation on MO, the GPTB says "stay the course" a proper Buell engine is not needed. Has the GPTB rode the Buell back to back with a modern sportbike? Only Buz has.. but not on the track..

jbourne is spot on. HD is raking in massive profits and not investing in the future. Like Ford raking in massive profits during the SUV boom. Selling pickup trucks with SUV bodies Ford raked it in. Where did those profits go..Now Ford is losing money. I predict HD will go the same way... A company is most vulnerable when it is most successful. It gets arrogant and complacent.

Meanwhile the GPTB says stay the course...
 
#9 ·
I own a 2002 X1W Lighting. I love the bike, Instead of a new motor i would rather see a 6 speed transmission. Another thing with Buell is people like that Harley sound they get with them I know alot of pig headed harley guys who wouldn't ever think about owning anytype of sport bike but they would buy a Buell.
 
#10 ·
Re: Current owner of 2004 Buell XB12S with race kit

Excellent stuff. Great ideas..
 
#11 ·
Yes, Harley does have the VRod motor. But I think I remember reading in interview with Mr. Buell where he talked about the issues of putting a VRod motor in a sportbike. Namely, it's long and heavy, and that would mean a Buell with a longer wheelbase and high dry weight, which is opposite if the way he's going with bike design.
 
#13 ·
Both the GPZ and Commando were top of the line sportbikes in their day. Dont think for a second that Kawasaki and Norton did not put the best technology available to them into their bikes. If they would have had the ability to make bikes even remotely comparable to the bikes of today they would have. That’s the difference, other manufactures are striving to develop new engines with more performance where as Buell is forced to constrain development to suit an outdated power plant. Ducati, Triumph and BMW both cling fiercely to "historic" engine layouts yet still have managed to develop these power plants into modern sportbikes engines by using all the technology available to them. Eric Buell should have the same opportunity.
 
#18 ·
Re: The GMP is right again, GPTB says stay the course.

I think the real question is "would a more modern engine benefit sales" and I just can't believe that anybody would say "no". And, incidentally, "sales are fine" is no kind of answer -- like it or not the chrome armchair market is growing old and will start to dwindle rapidly in the near future... Harley needs to be aggressive about having somewhere to go if they want to remain in the game.
 
#20 ·
Yes, I have a Buell. Yes, I love it. But there should be more engine choices. The bike has some great features, as jbourne has pointed out, and he is spot on in saying that they need a real engine option, say a 1000cc 90 degree vtwin. I almost bought an ST3 because it has a modern engine with seemingly limitless power. I bought the Buell, but the longer I have it the more I become annoyed by the engine's limitations. There is no technology challenge here, only a Harley arrogance challenge.



Please Harley. you have let Eric build a superb. modern sportbike. Let him have a better engine. If Suzuki can put a good engine in the SV1000, you can do it for Buell as well.



Francis
 
#21 ·
This Buell new-engine thread just won't die...

Look guys, you just can't take a different engine and jam it into a motorcycle, as you might with an automobile. Bikes and their engines are intimately related. The character of a bike is dependant on the engine. Swapping motors leads to other changes in the bike structure that inevitably result in a different motorcycle.

This would be especially important in any redesign of the Buell. One of the key elements that separates the current Buell design from other V-twin sportbikes is the frame geometry and extremely short wheelbase, which gives the bike that Atomic Unicycle feel that I love so much. Ducatis have wheelbases like semis, and as a result they feel quite different than Buells. I ain't saying that's bad... but it is not the Buell "feel".

Designing this imaginary new Buell motor in a way that would allow it to fit in the space the Sportster motor occupies in existing frame might be a real challenge, and might not be possible. Altering the frame will change the character of the whole bike.

You want really big power from this new motor, don't you? Well then you will require water cooling. Which of course means you must find a place for a water pump, hoses, and that damn radiator. There is no place on the current Buell to locate these things. In order to accomodate them the frame must be altered and the wheelbase lengthened. There we go again... it no longer feels like a Buell. (Note: I don't want to see another damn reference to the V-Rod motor in this thread--- while it is a wonderful power plant indeed, it is absolutely WRONG in a Buell--- it's way too big and heavy and expensive).

And what configuration will the new Buell motor be? 90-deg.? 60 deg.? Like an Italian motor? Perhaps... but call me the old fossil that I am--- I really don't want to give up the heartbeat of that 45-deg. V-twin. I love that pulse, and those other engines just don't have it, no matter what kind of open pipe you might put on them.

We would all like more power, but aside from bumping up the displacement of the current engine another 100cc or so, I don't see how to get that power without destroying the character of the bike, which I am not willing to do. Track days aside, the current engine is perfect for real-world street/commute/canyon riding. I rarely feel as though I am being "left-behind", and if I do, its not because of any lack of ponies, its because I have two left feet.

Do not sell H-D short on engineering talent and marketing smarts. If Buell TRULY needs a new engine, mama will buy. But I really don't believe it is required. But perhaps I'm way off base here... anyway, didn't mean to rant. :)
 
#22 ·
Ducati 1098 Engine in my new 2009 Buell

I forgot to mention one other thing. If Buell does not come out with a new much improved engine...

...then the engine in my new 2009 Buell is probably going to be a new Ducati 1098 engine.

Why?

Because I will be buying a new Ducati 1098 as my replacement bike!!
 
#23 ·
Re: This Buell new-engine thread just won't die...

All of these points are valid but I don't think any of them render the investment of money and engineering hours worthless. I think a more modern power plant is absolutely doable and I don't think there's a chance of it getting out the door if it's going to negatively affect the riding characteristics of the bike... Eric would go on a shooting spree ;-)
 
#24 ·
Took a test ride on a Ulysses and Firebolt last year and while the bikes didn't fit my ergos very well I like the feel overall. That said, while nice and torquey, the sheer amount of heat coming off that massive V was oppressive (it was a warm day) even after the bike sat for 10-15 minutes, and the gearbox felt clunky. I wasn't able to really open them up on the test ride, so I can't speak of top end.



Hopefully Buell spends more money on R&D and less on marketing and bodywork designers. I'd love to see a smaller, lighter and more modern V or parallel twin dropped in -- instead of that massive motor -- and Buell would be a true "modern" bike.
 
#25 ·
Norton/Triumph whent out of business because of mismanagement and quality concerns. When Norton stopped production the Commandos were still amongst the best handling bikes on the road. The Japanese 750 and up bikes were overweight and flexy. Notice that Ducati managed to survive in a similar niche.



Lots of people wanted Commados. They just couldn't deal with the terrible reliability problems. I had one briefly and when it was running it was a real blast. Much more enjoyable than any Japanese 750. But it was too stressful to always be worried that the electrics would strand you.



Anyhow it's all simply personal choice. If Eric likes the sporty motor and people are willing to buy them then more power to him and them.



I'm sure he'll change things when he gets good and ready rather than listen to a bunch of whiners who were all so sure that he could never successfully market what he has successfully sold thousands of. Few of the people who complain about his engine would buy a Buell with an upgraded engine. They'd look at it and then buy the Japanese bike anyhow because no matter what happens the Japanese bikes are gonna be cheaper, better dealer network...yawn, heard it all before.



Eric sells loads of them because they aren't cookiecutteurs. And since Kawasaki has decided to shamelessly copy Buell with the Versys I'd say that Eric has the initiative. Who's copying who?
 
#26 ·
Re: Ducati 1098 Engine in my new 2009 Buell

Harley has had the opportunity to make progress with this for about a decade now. The air-cooled motor in ANY of the line up will not make it through the next round of EU pollution regs. And will have a tough time here when the EPA starts enforcing their next round of regs, as well. HD must be keenly aware of this. So, the real question is: When will they let the cat out of the bag for the next "all-new" motors? Or do you even care about that at all? Are you concerning yourself with the current customer base or do you indeed have a plan for the future to address EPA / EU regs and your next generation of customers? Just wondering HD.....
 
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