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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Comments like this are part of the problem. When motorcycle riders call environmentalists "enviro-nazis" and resort to name-calling such as "Ozone Al" it just widens the rifts between environmentalists and motorcyclists and other recreationists.



I consider myself to be an environmentalist first, and a motorcyclist 2nd. I don't ride off-road, but I'm not totally opposed to doing so. What bothers me is when people have this attitude that it's either/or. Either we worry about the environment, OR we can have our off-road fun.



We know that we can do both. In your above post you gave a good suggestion, which is to create quieter bikes. There are plenty of other things that can be done, such as making cleaner bikes (less emissions), more fuel-efficient bikes, and most of all, by encouraging riders to do their part to help to not destroy the land they enjoy playing on.



The same thing is going on with snowmobiles and jet-skis. Sadly, what happens is that both the manufacturers and the users decry any plans to try to create cleaner machinery. Then environmentalists are left with only one option: ban them, since they won't voluntarily clean up their act. I can't blame them (and like I said I'm actually one of them). I hope motorcycle manufacturers will be more proactive and will do what they can to minimize environmental impacts of the sport. I think Honda is leading the way with their cleaner bikes that already meet California's 2008(?) tough air-quality standards. This is the kind of thing that will keep it from being an us vs. them battle. There's no reason we can't all work together.....
 

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True manure is a common fertilizer it is also true that is contains a high amount un-germanated weed/exotic plant seeds. Most of these weeds spread at unbelievable rate and in time would choke at a signifigant portion of the native flora. You can extrapolate on the effects this has on the food chain.



Also maybe you could spot the (1 OF MANY)hyprocrisy in the USFS/BLM LAND MANGEMENT POLICIES.
 

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It's no wonder why we keep losing OHV areas. Look at some of the comments. Some people just dont get it. The tree huggers, owl lovers, green peace and the sierra club all have the same things in common. One cause, one belief, and unity. Hell, just like the speech says, Hog riders got no use for Harley Riders, Sport bikers got no use for Harleys/Cruisers, hell even dirts bikers have gotten stupid, 2 strokes vs 4 strokes, 4 wheelers have no use for SUV's, and SUVer's have no clue. Mtn Bikers think they're above everyone else because they're people powered, Horse riders think this is the wild west and they don't fit into OUR predicament. Hikers and climbers, seen the face of any good climbing area, petons, axe and pick marks,chaulk and power bar wrappers, and seen the parking lots of these places, how many Excursions, expeditions, tahoes, 4 runners, cherokees and path finders did it take to get them to the HIKE. Lets not forget those Jet skiers and Bass Fisherman, their not immune. Pre-mix from a Bass boat ain't no different. Anyone have a landscape business in LA, can you say good bye to weed wackers and gas blowers. Anyone fly model airplanes, those area's are gone too...



The one thing we'll all have in common soon, we'll all be back yard bikers, arm chair climbers, recliner racers, and corona drinking story tellers of how it used to be.



Get together and unite, one cause one fight. It works for the other side. Take a lesson from Gun Control.
 

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You know, dog versus horse, it's not about the small animal kill issue or even the waste issue, If that were the case humans wouldn't be allowed in. Human's kill more small animals each and everyday than any dog domestic or not. Human's leave more waste than any animal alive. It's the american west mentality. My Australian shepherd hasn't killed anything but a few bugs, and hikers leave more human and manufactured waste. My dog doesn't leave beer bottles at the beach, and he's not allowed at most of them...Some laws are still written with the old west mentality. But most are written with a human arrogence and lack of self responsibility or accountability.



It's easier to blame something that can't defend itself. Only human's wage war on themselves and everything else alive, seek ways to destroy it's own race and succeeded.
 

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While I won't tell you guys not to write in to the Feds, I told them my feelings on the subject, and this is what I got back, verbatim:



"Thank you for your comments on the President's Roadless Area Initiative.

The formal comment period ended on July 17, 2000. Your comments will be

included in the archive for the record."



Does this smack of King Klington telling us all to off, or what? Glad this ******* is outta here soon, and his little "Gore-bot" lost the election, no matter how much he whines for a recount so they can stuff the ballot box. I hope Lewinski gave him Aids.
 

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Actually, much as I hate King Klinton and his Gore-bot, I agree that the popular vote, and not the electoral college should determine the Presidency. Fortunately, in this case, we'll be getting Bush instead of "Ozone Al". Mark my words, he's won Florida, and thus, the election. If I'm wrong, I'll personally write here to this forum, and admit my error. Keep an eye on the news, my friend.

P.S I lived in Gunbarrel Estates (between Boulder and Longmont, on the diagonal), from '75 to '80, and loved it. Beautiful country, visited it several times since, over the years. Wish I was back. No matter how things turn out, keep the shiny side up.
 

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ANY fresh excrement, no matter the source, contains high levels of bile acids, and will kill plants where it drops. It is only after these acids break down that the excrement becomes fertilizer. The manure you buy has been composted. When was the last time you were hiking down a path and had to steer clear of some motorcycle crap? Those aholes riding the horses should be made to clean the trails up after the horses, and should have to register and pay fees like we do. Why is it only the motorized riders have to pay, and not everyone? I's not fair. I agree, we should ALL be mindful of the environment, and of others, but after seeing the results, I can say that horses tear up the trails worse, and leave more waste behind.
 

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You touched upon a issue that could/will be the downfall of public use of our lands. That is the diversity of users. Why the USFS has not come up with any sort of land plan that would accomadate everyone is beyound me. Being a Landscape Architect I have devolopement such said plans for state and county held lands. It can be done. If we could ban togehter and formulate a lodgical plant that included all considerations then and present them in a public forum, with a dynamic .....soory just dreaming.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Sorry, but you're ignorant.



First, your assertion that hikers and bikers leave trash because they need to eat: Just because someone eats and drinks does not mean they throw the food wrapper or the gatorade bottle onto the ground. I hike and bike a lot, and most everybody I hike & bike with not only wouldn't think of leaving trash behind, we actually will stop and pick up trash and put it into our pack and throw it out later. When was the last time you got off your motorcycle to pick up some trash? And when was the last time you saw a hiker or mountain biker leak oil over the trail?



Second, the "so-called" erosion. All that's needed is a fire, hurricane, nuclear explosion, some guy to drive thru the forest in a tank, etc. Who cares? The fact is that bikes cause erosion (motorized and non-motorized). So do hikers. Just because there are things out there that would cause more damage doesn't mean we should ignore erosion. I'm not saying that means nobody should ever ride. I'm saying we should take it into account. Try not to lock up the back wheel and skid around (that causes more erosion). Some land would be more sensitive to erosion than others so it would make sense to restrict bikes from some areas. If you don't admit that your activity is impacting the land, you sound pretty ignorant.



Plant life thrives on CO2. So what? They don't thrive on hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide, and motorcycles spew out plenty of that, too. In case you care (doubtful), the CO and HCs contribute to global warming, smog, reduced visibility, and generally dirty air. These are scientific facts.



The closures are not a political agenda for people who want to feel good about themselves. They are motivated by people who actually give a crap about the future of the land and the air and the water. People who want the land not to be destroyed so that 500 years from now people can still enjoy it. People who want clean air and clean water not just now while we're alive but in the future as well. People who not only care about enjoying recreational activies themselves, but also want to protect the land, water, and air for people who haven't even been born yet. Believe it or not, some people do care about things besides themselves.



You would do better to try to actually understand the motivation of an environmentalist rather than just ripping everything they say and trying to come up with excuses so you can think that there really isn't a real problem, as long as you can continue to ride your precious motorbike.



Accept that your recreational activity of choice has some negative side effects, and do what you can to minimize these side effects. And at least understand why these side effects might piss some people off, especially when you deny their existence or make excuses why it doesn't matter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Actually I thought the guy was making some pretty damn good points. And here you go with "well but it's not as bad as wars and exploding valcanoes so it must be ok."

"As if motorcycles did any damage." You are kidding right? Or are you really stupid enough to think that motorcycles cause no harm to the air, land, water, and wildlife? This is the kind of attitude that will get the motorbikes banned on all the public land. Open your eyes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Guys, I got news for you, it's not the big bad government who decided they don't care about you. The government is taking their cue from the American people, as they are supposed to do. Like it or not, there are a hell of a lot more environmentalists in this country than dirt bike riders. Popular opinion is turning more and more towards trying to protect the wild and unspoiled lands that we still have. People are realizing that if something isn't done, it may be too late, and soon there won't be anyplace where you can go to "get away from it all".



The best way to keep dirt bikes allowed on trails is for dirt bikers to start caring about the environment too, and showing it. Come up with compromise plans so you still get to ride and the concerns about pollution, erosion, etc. are not ignored. The more you act defiant and basically say "screw you" to environmentalists, the more they'll do the same back to you...
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I assume you meant motorcyclists, not motorists. I did a quick comparison check. The AMA has 270,000 members (as listed on their website). The Sierra Club has "over 600,000 members" (as listed on their website).



Sure, this doesn't prove that there are more environmentalists than motorcyclists, because not all motorcyclists are AMA members and not all environmentalists belong to the Sierra Club. So maybe, as you say, environmentalists just have a big mouth and they exercise that by joining these groups and giving money to them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Come on, Squid, you can do better than that. Just because you can't see the damage, it's not there? "The damage is in your mind," you say.

I assure you I have better things to do than dream up non-existent problems. In fact, I used to not really think air pollution was much of a problem. So I did some research. I will share some of it with you.

CO2 is beneficial to plants. I won't deny that. However, that's not the whole story. CO2 is also a greenhouse gas (as you pointed out). So are several other gasses that fuel-burning vehicles emit. Greenhouse gasses are contributing to global warming. In the long run, the negative effects of global warming would far out-weigh any positive effects of some extra CO2 for the plants. This information is from the EPA website (http://www.epa.gov/globalwarming/faq/fundamentals.html). Some of you might dismiss it outright because it comes from the EPA. Sorry, but I'll trust scientists who make this stuff their life's work over someone who says "i can't see any damage so it's in your mind."

Fuel-burning vehicles also have other negative effects. They emit oxides of nitrogen (NOx) and volatile organic compounds (VOC). This causes smog and unhealthy air (for plants, animals, and humans). To learn more about this see http://www.epa.gov/oar/oaqps/gooduphigh/ and also http://www.epa.gov/otaq/04-ozone.htm

A little education would do us all some good. Denying that there's a problem doesn't mean there's not a problem.

I also did some research a while back on trying to figure out which pollutes more: a car or a motorcycle. Strangely enough the motorcycle companies did not want to share their data with me, but I eventually got some data from the government. It turns out that in general, motorcycles pollute a LOT more than cars (typically 10x as much, I recall). Obviously some bikes are better than others (fuel injection: good). I'd be happy to dig out the numbers on that stuff if anybody cares.
 
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