Gotta agree with ya JB. Some of the craigslist sellers must have filled thier crankcases with gold, because I have a good laugh at the prices some of them are asking. There are some good pickins out there, but between the highballers and the scammers, there are only a few worth serious consideration. KBB is probably close on Japanese machinery and they were low on Harley. Probably closer on Harley now that the market is softening up.
Kelly Blue Book pricing...
1 - 20 of 69 Posts
The proper way to send them a message that they're asking way too much is to simply NOT BUY THE BIKE. It's up to people to check the KBB or NADA guides for pricing before buying, not you, and sellers can ask whatever they want... but if we don't buy their overpriced crap they'll get the message.
I've bought a lot of bikes used, (I've done it professionally, buying bikes for a motorcycle shop) and it seems that people usually add 20% or more to KBB prices.
Kelly determines these values by sending survey forms to dealers. These dealers that have the time to fill the forms out and mail them in provide most of the data to the Kelly people. So this means that the value is a nationwide average of what motorcycle retailers are getting for a motorcycle sold at a dealership, with all the benefits -- like having an established business that USUALLY (please save your stories about how your local "stealer" screwed you for another time) stands behind what they sell -- included.
So I want to laugh when I see some schmuck offering a year-old 250 Ninja for MSRP ("Only dropped once in the garage"). But the reality is that KBB is an average that makes a good starting point for a negotiation with a seller.
On average, I pay something that's halfway between the KBB trade-in and retail. I think that's pretty fair. For perspective, buyers from Europe actually make money filling a container of used bikes from the US and shipping them to Europe. It seems that over there, riders actually ride their motorcycles before they sell them, so it's rare to find a late-model bike with less than a few thousand miles on it. US riders average less than 1200 miles a year, so if you think about it, even KBB pricing is a bargain. If you're willing to pay a little more, you can usually find a bike with under 1000 miles, with remaining warranty ("small scratch on tank and broken brake lever from where I dropped it in the driveway") for thousands less than buying new.
JB, you don't really expect us to believe you're going to actually buy a streetbike, do you?
Kelly determines these values by sending survey forms to dealers. These dealers that have the time to fill the forms out and mail them in provide most of the data to the Kelly people. So this means that the value is a nationwide average of what motorcycle retailers are getting for a motorcycle sold at a dealership, with all the benefits -- like having an established business that USUALLY (please save your stories about how your local "stealer" screwed you for another time) stands behind what they sell -- included.
So I want to laugh when I see some schmuck offering a year-old 250 Ninja for MSRP ("Only dropped once in the garage"). But the reality is that KBB is an average that makes a good starting point for a negotiation with a seller.
On average, I pay something that's halfway between the KBB trade-in and retail. I think that's pretty fair. For perspective, buyers from Europe actually make money filling a container of used bikes from the US and shipping them to Europe. It seems that over there, riders actually ride their motorcycles before they sell them, so it's rare to find a late-model bike with less than a few thousand miles on it. US riders average less than 1200 miles a year, so if you think about it, even KBB pricing is a bargain. If you're willing to pay a little more, you can usually find a bike with under 1000 miles, with remaining warranty ("small scratch on tank and broken brake lever from where I dropped it in the driveway") for thousands less than buying new.
JB, you don't really expect us to believe you're going to actually buy a streetbike, do you?
Fun thing I wrote some time ago for Citybike
Craigslist Boneheads
Copyright 2005 Gabe Ets-Hokin
Who are these freakin' guys, anyway?
If you are a Bay Area motorcyclist, and you work at a desk with a computer on it, you probably spend some time every day browsing through the most comprehensive index of human stupidity on the Internet, the Craigslist Motorcycles/Scooters listing.
For those of you who have somehow missed out on the whole computer thing, Craigslist is a community bulletin board system founded by San Franciscan Craig Newmark in 1994. It has job listings, apartments for rent and all kinds of discussion forums. It is, in fact, one of the most heavily used websites right now, ranked 41st out of all the millions of websites out there. This means that basically, every Bay Area resident with internet access knows about Craigslist.
So naturally, the motorcycle page is very heavily trafficked. And there are thousands of ads on there right now, for every imaginable make and model. From the crappiest Z50 monkey knockoff to the most exquisite custom chopper, it has it all.
So naturally, theres a lot of stupid people buying and selling, presenting an amusing and pathetic microcosm of the human world for our worktime amusement. The stupidity is in so many forms it could (and might!) provide fodder for many columns: after all, I can only bash SUVs for so many months in a row. But because I dont want to take up too much of Grandpa Haltons precious real estate, Ill describe just a few. Enjoy!
Mindless Cheapskates
These are the most common subspecies of Craigslist Idiots (CLIs) out there. Like all CLIs, their spelling and grammar are at approximately a Second grade level. Look for all capitals, so youll know how serious they are. They usually want the impossible: "WANTED 2 BY: R1 GSXR NINJA636 R6 CBR600RR 2003 AND UP GOOD CONDISHUN NO SALVAGE TITLES. WILL PAY UP 2 $3000 CASH OR TRADE 1991 HONDA ACCORD AND LAPTOP. SERIOUS ONLY, PLEEZE. They often have a very businesslike email address, in case the usage of all capitals doesnt inform you of their severe seriousness. Im surprised that someone with a reputable email address like [email protected] doesnt have a personal assistant or intern to find a motorcycle for him.
How does a guy like this get $3,000? Smashing parking meters? Donating small internal organs? Does being a human billboard pay that well? If so, Im in the wrong line of work.
Mr. Victim of a Bad Decision
I dont want to get into trouble reprinting somebodys ad (what if its Roman Polanskis?), but it usually goes something like this:
2005 Suzuki GSXR1000, 116 miles, small scratches, PERFECT! LIKE NEW!!!!!!
This is one fast motorcycle! It can go like 190 MPH! I payd over $14,000 out the door, but Ill sell it to you for only $13,980. Fender eliminator, Yosh exhaust, matching Arai helmet and Joe Rocket jacket, unused and perfect (except for a scrape mark on the back of the helmet) included. Only one low-speed tip-over, damage invisible from the right side.
Somebody needs to go out to his house and just slap this guy. But I do like how the Craigslist version of perfection is so much more forgiving than the repressive Judeo-Christian idea of perfection, meaning "no flaws of any kind". On Craigslist, "perfect" seems to mean "anything better than ****ty", so I have now revised my college GPA to a 4.0 from a 2.71. Harvard MBA, here I come!
The Hopeless Optimist
These folks are pathetic, but I find something stirring about the uniquely American brand of optimism displayed by them. They actually have a few sub varieties. The first are the overpricers. The normal laws of supply and demand are for suckers: the skys the limit when it comes to pricing motorcycles!
For an overpricer, a used bike sold by a private individual has about the same value as a brand new, current year motorcycle commonly available at any motorcycle dealership. So if they paid $4,000 out the door for a 250 Ninja three years ago, well, then, they should be able to get $3,200 for their three year old bike today, even though it has scratches on both sides, a broken turnsignal, and hasnt seen a wash bucket or can of chainlube since the Iraq war started. Go check out Wealth of Nations from the library, Greenspan, and try again.
Whats the state motto of New Hampshire? "Live Free or Die", right? So this next group I call "New Hampshirites". They see Craigslist as a place to get free stuff, because hey, work is for suckers, right?
WANTED: FREE MOTORCYCLE
Im a starving student and really want a motorcycle. Do you have a running motorcycle, preferably a Ninja or R6 that you can give me? Id be really, really grateful and would even consider making a small payment each month.
These guys make me angry because theyre the motorcycle worlds equivalent of the untouchables at Grateful Dead concerts who would wander grubbily around the parking lots with one emaciated finger in the air, waiting for some schmuck to give them a free ticket. I always wanted to rent a steamroller to take to one of these concerts, as this is the one demographic you could chase down with a steamroller.
Nobodys going to give you a motorcycle. Not a running one, anyway. Get a job!
The last group of optimists are the Classics Schleppers. Whats the next hot investment? Real Estate? Genentech? No way! A barely running 1980 CB750K! Only $2800! GOOD FOR THE OPEN ROAD! The only way that investment will pay off is if you own stock in a fork seal manufacturer.
And just to wrap things up, this last bit is actual text from a Craigslist ad. Its for a 1980s 600 Ninja, which Im positive is a nice bike, as the only thing mid-80s sportbikes need to bring them up to modern standards is an alloy subframe.
BIKE WAS UPGRADED ALLOY SUBFRAME REBULTED CARBS AIRBOX MUST GO BEFORE THE END OF THE MONTH CALL JASON
I emailed Jason and asked where his airbox was going, and if I could go with it. As of presstime, he still has not responded.
Craigslist Boneheads
Copyright 2005 Gabe Ets-Hokin
Who are these freakin' guys, anyway?
If you are a Bay Area motorcyclist, and you work at a desk with a computer on it, you probably spend some time every day browsing through the most comprehensive index of human stupidity on the Internet, the Craigslist Motorcycles/Scooters listing.
For those of you who have somehow missed out on the whole computer thing, Craigslist is a community bulletin board system founded by San Franciscan Craig Newmark in 1994. It has job listings, apartments for rent and all kinds of discussion forums. It is, in fact, one of the most heavily used websites right now, ranked 41st out of all the millions of websites out there. This means that basically, every Bay Area resident with internet access knows about Craigslist.
So naturally, the motorcycle page is very heavily trafficked. And there are thousands of ads on there right now, for every imaginable make and model. From the crappiest Z50 monkey knockoff to the most exquisite custom chopper, it has it all.
So naturally, theres a lot of stupid people buying and selling, presenting an amusing and pathetic microcosm of the human world for our worktime amusement. The stupidity is in so many forms it could (and might!) provide fodder for many columns: after all, I can only bash SUVs for so many months in a row. But because I dont want to take up too much of Grandpa Haltons precious real estate, Ill describe just a few. Enjoy!
Mindless Cheapskates
These are the most common subspecies of Craigslist Idiots (CLIs) out there. Like all CLIs, their spelling and grammar are at approximately a Second grade level. Look for all capitals, so youll know how serious they are. They usually want the impossible: "WANTED 2 BY: R1 GSXR NINJA636 R6 CBR600RR 2003 AND UP GOOD CONDISHUN NO SALVAGE TITLES. WILL PAY UP 2 $3000 CASH OR TRADE 1991 HONDA ACCORD AND LAPTOP. SERIOUS ONLY, PLEEZE. They often have a very businesslike email address, in case the usage of all capitals doesnt inform you of their severe seriousness. Im surprised that someone with a reputable email address like [email protected] doesnt have a personal assistant or intern to find a motorcycle for him.
How does a guy like this get $3,000? Smashing parking meters? Donating small internal organs? Does being a human billboard pay that well? If so, Im in the wrong line of work.
Mr. Victim of a Bad Decision
I dont want to get into trouble reprinting somebodys ad (what if its Roman Polanskis?), but it usually goes something like this:
2005 Suzuki GSXR1000, 116 miles, small scratches, PERFECT! LIKE NEW!!!!!!
This is one fast motorcycle! It can go like 190 MPH! I payd over $14,000 out the door, but Ill sell it to you for only $13,980. Fender eliminator, Yosh exhaust, matching Arai helmet and Joe Rocket jacket, unused and perfect (except for a scrape mark on the back of the helmet) included. Only one low-speed tip-over, damage invisible from the right side.
Somebody needs to go out to his house and just slap this guy. But I do like how the Craigslist version of perfection is so much more forgiving than the repressive Judeo-Christian idea of perfection, meaning "no flaws of any kind". On Craigslist, "perfect" seems to mean "anything better than ****ty", so I have now revised my college GPA to a 4.0 from a 2.71. Harvard MBA, here I come!
The Hopeless Optimist
These folks are pathetic, but I find something stirring about the uniquely American brand of optimism displayed by them. They actually have a few sub varieties. The first are the overpricers. The normal laws of supply and demand are for suckers: the skys the limit when it comes to pricing motorcycles!
For an overpricer, a used bike sold by a private individual has about the same value as a brand new, current year motorcycle commonly available at any motorcycle dealership. So if they paid $4,000 out the door for a 250 Ninja three years ago, well, then, they should be able to get $3,200 for their three year old bike today, even though it has scratches on both sides, a broken turnsignal, and hasnt seen a wash bucket or can of chainlube since the Iraq war started. Go check out Wealth of Nations from the library, Greenspan, and try again.
Whats the state motto of New Hampshire? "Live Free or Die", right? So this next group I call "New Hampshirites". They see Craigslist as a place to get free stuff, because hey, work is for suckers, right?
WANTED: FREE MOTORCYCLE
Im a starving student and really want a motorcycle. Do you have a running motorcycle, preferably a Ninja or R6 that you can give me? Id be really, really grateful and would even consider making a small payment each month.
These guys make me angry because theyre the motorcycle worlds equivalent of the untouchables at Grateful Dead concerts who would wander grubbily around the parking lots with one emaciated finger in the air, waiting for some schmuck to give them a free ticket. I always wanted to rent a steamroller to take to one of these concerts, as this is the one demographic you could chase down with a steamroller.
Nobodys going to give you a motorcycle. Not a running one, anyway. Get a job!
The last group of optimists are the Classics Schleppers. Whats the next hot investment? Real Estate? Genentech? No way! A barely running 1980 CB750K! Only $2800! GOOD FOR THE OPEN ROAD! The only way that investment will pay off is if you own stock in a fork seal manufacturer.
And just to wrap things up, this last bit is actual text from a Craigslist ad. Its for a 1980s 600 Ninja, which Im positive is a nice bike, as the only thing mid-80s sportbikes need to bring them up to modern standards is an alloy subframe.
BIKE WAS UPGRADED ALLOY SUBFRAME REBULTED CARBS AIRBOX MUST GO BEFORE THE END OF THE MONTH CALL JASON
I emailed Jason and asked where his airbox was going, and if I could go with it. As of presstime, he still has not responded.
Joined
·
4,129 Posts
1- KBB as a "guide" blows big chunks. They are all over the place when using it as a guide. But mostly under-value.
2- NADA is a much more consistant guide.
Dealers and Insurance companies tend to rely on the accuracy because the NADA is issued every three months and the good people at NADA actually seem to do research.
Value on bikes is as mistifying as those water-marks of the Virgin Mary.
In the south the bikes sell for between 10%-25% higher than in the KBB and NADA. Why- because we are in "year around" riding territory. Values stay high because the bikes tend to be in better over-all condition than bikes in northern states (as a whole).
In 2005 I bought a '87 K100rs off ebay for $3200. The NADA and KBB both had the retail under $2500. But the market here is strong and the bikes value is higher than the printed materials would allow. I bought it because the market would lend to a re-sale of $3200-$3500 in Atlanta.
Basic logic- follow the Cycle Trader magazine and local news papers for retail pricing- they are cosistantly closer to your market value.
If you have to make a claim for insurance reasons collect all the info you can on your bikes "worth" from Cycle Trader, Ebay, the local newspaper and the NADA. Average the lot and there's your value.
2- NADA is a much more consistant guide.
Dealers and Insurance companies tend to rely on the accuracy because the NADA is issued every three months and the good people at NADA actually seem to do research.
Value on bikes is as mistifying as those water-marks of the Virgin Mary.
In the south the bikes sell for between 10%-25% higher than in the KBB and NADA. Why- because we are in "year around" riding territory. Values stay high because the bikes tend to be in better over-all condition than bikes in northern states (as a whole).
In 2005 I bought a '87 K100rs off ebay for $3200. The NADA and KBB both had the retail under $2500. But the market here is strong and the bikes value is higher than the printed materials would allow. I bought it because the market would lend to a re-sale of $3200-$3500 in Atlanta.
Basic logic- follow the Cycle Trader magazine and local news papers for retail pricing- they are cosistantly closer to your market value.
If you have to make a claim for insurance reasons collect all the info you can on your bikes "worth" from Cycle Trader, Ebay, the local newspaper and the NADA. Average the lot and there's your value.
While most KBB prices are too high, sometimes they are too low.
I bought bikes *over* KBB prices only to sell them next year for about the same or more (and have the money to prove it). EX500 prices on KBB in the Boston area are a good example.
KBB is a good reference point, but nothing more than that. The individual bike condition is very important.
I bought bikes *over* KBB prices only to sell them next year for about the same or more (and have the money to prove it). EX500 prices on KBB in the Boston area are a good example.
KBB is a good reference point, but nothing more than that. The individual bike condition is very important.
Joined
·
4,129 Posts
Gabe-
Dealers will consistanly send in values on bikes in these surveys that are between 15%-20% LOWER than the market value of the bike. They do this to make sure that when a trade comes in they can hit the customer with the lowest possible trade-in value. It's a dealer scam.
Example- a buddy that owns a Ducati dealership took in a Raptor 660 ATV and put $3000 into it. The retail was at $4900. The "new" cost was $6400. It's two years old and suddenly it's worth less than half than the "new" retail cost. Think that sounds right? NO- This guy that traded my buddy could have easily gotten $4700-$5300 for it. It only had 10hrs on it. It was in great condition. However, the NADA stated the trade values, the dealer quoted them and took the trade. Good for the dealer, bad for the customer. If he would have waited and sold on the private market he could have gotten some $1500 more out of the deal.
Dealers will consistanly send in values on bikes in these surveys that are between 15%-20% LOWER than the market value of the bike. They do this to make sure that when a trade comes in they can hit the customer with the lowest possible trade-in value. It's a dealer scam.
Example- a buddy that owns a Ducati dealership took in a Raptor 660 ATV and put $3000 into it. The retail was at $4900. The "new" cost was $6400. It's two years old and suddenly it's worth less than half than the "new" retail cost. Think that sounds right? NO- This guy that traded my buddy could have easily gotten $4700-$5300 for it. It only had 10hrs on it. It was in great condition. However, the NADA stated the trade values, the dealer quoted them and took the trade. Good for the dealer, bad for the customer. If he would have waited and sold on the private market he could have gotten some $1500 more out of the deal.
reminds me of the time wife's wisconsin chick friend was having a garage sale, and somebody offered her lo-ball for some old blanket. Response: I'll BURN it right here in the yard before I'll sell that to ya for 8 bucks...
those wisco girls can be vicious.
those wisco girls can be vicious.
I'll pick this one up for ya JB. Chicago craigslist. Looks pretty clean too.
1990 GSXR 1100 --- 2500.00 ----- drag/street bike - $2500
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: [email protected]
Date: 2007-02-20, 10:48PM CST
90 gsxr 1100
14k original miles
lowered
70mm flatslide carbs
stage 3 jet kit
brand new dunlop 208's
Black paint job with lots of flake
full system vance and hines exhaust
new plugs and oil
clean title
2500.00
1990 GSXR 1100 --- 2500.00 ----- drag/street bike - $2500
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: [email protected]
Date: 2007-02-20, 10:48PM CST
90 gsxr 1100
14k original miles
lowered
70mm flatslide carbs
stage 3 jet kit
brand new dunlop 208's
Black paint job with lots of flake
full system vance and hines exhaust
new plugs and oil
clean title
2500.00
Joined
·
17,458 Posts
Re: Fun thing I wrote some time ago for Citybike
The con artists who try to promote their clapped out loser bike that no one wanted even when it was new as a "rare collector classic" can all go suck cyanide. You can find any one of the supposed collector's bikes at junkyards in abundance.
Starving student? Nobody who is going to college is starving. They can get jobs instead of hanging around smoking dope. These deadbeat losers can all go F*** off. It's bad enough that my taxes go to keep these hairy smelly sandalclad College Bums in school in the first place. They get no more free crap from me. Most of them are going to be selling french fries and collecting food stamps off of my nickel after they graduate anyhow.
The con artists who try to promote their clapped out loser bike that no one wanted even when it was new as a "rare collector classic" can all go suck cyanide. You can find any one of the supposed collector's bikes at junkyards in abundance.
Starving student? Nobody who is going to college is starving. They can get jobs instead of hanging around smoking dope. These deadbeat losers can all go F*** off. It's bad enough that my taxes go to keep these hairy smelly sandalclad College Bums in school in the first place. They get no more free crap from me. Most of them are going to be selling french fries and collecting food stamps off of my nickel after they graduate anyhow.
Joined
·
4,129 Posts
pick up an old FJ1200 (89-92) for around $3000 and ride happy.
Joined
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4,129 Posts
You proved my point (above). Thanks- Kirk
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