Motorcycle fatalities in the Sacramento Area
41 - 60 of 103 Posts
I bet he never even got close to scraping the pegs. He probably did get in hot, shyt his pants and hit the brakes, stood it up, and plowed the tree. Seldom does a new rider lean enough to lift the tires because they get scared. Hell, seldom does an experienced rider do that. Unless you know better, the first reaction is to hit the brakes and stand it up.
Joined
·
19 Posts
Re: now to wax philisophic
Thomas Hobbes, From Leviathan:
[A description of the state of Nature, before man forms society]:
Thomas Hobbes, From Leviathan:
[A description of the state of Nature, before man forms society]:
Joined
·
209 Posts
Sean's exactly right. Training and some basic education probably would have helped the Harley guy, but the other two were victims of stupidity, and a failure to understand the consequences of their actions. Motorcycles require an extraordinary amount of skill to ride safely, and to ride fast requires skill, practice and judgement. Reckless abandon tends to yield results similar to those described above.
As a semi-related note, I have a friend here who recently mentioned that, as a first bike, he wanted a Harley Fat Boy or something equivalent. I had a fairly detailed and graphic conversation with him about why that was horrible decision, the consequences of errors particularly on land barges like the Fat Boy, his complete ignorance on handling that or any other bike, and have (hopefully) convinced him that starting with something more reasonable, a la a Sportster (he likes the Harley image, which I couldn't talk him out of), would to wonders for extending his riding career.
All that being said, I think that we as a society are already coddled and overprotected by regulation, law and rule. Mandatory airbags and ABS in cars are a great example of this. Your cost is pushed up and choices are taken from you because some jerk-off got all teary eyed about someone dying in their car. That really pisses me off. Life in general has a defined outcome - death - and this culture of safety really is a degenerate notion that attempts to sap our humanity (note: part of my ***** is that a reasonably priced, light-weight sportscar physically can't be built with today's auto regulations).
That's part of the reason I love motorcycles; by their inherent nature they can not be made passively safe - safety requires active participation from the rider. Even then there are risks, of course.
This discussion really has two components though: the degredation of the human spirit, and idiots who kill themselves by acting the fool.
Okay, now I'm rambling.
cdg
As a semi-related note, I have a friend here who recently mentioned that, as a first bike, he wanted a Harley Fat Boy or something equivalent. I had a fairly detailed and graphic conversation with him about why that was horrible decision, the consequences of errors particularly on land barges like the Fat Boy, his complete ignorance on handling that or any other bike, and have (hopefully) convinced him that starting with something more reasonable, a la a Sportster (he likes the Harley image, which I couldn't talk him out of), would to wonders for extending his riding career.
All that being said, I think that we as a society are already coddled and overprotected by regulation, law and rule. Mandatory airbags and ABS in cars are a great example of this. Your cost is pushed up and choices are taken from you because some jerk-off got all teary eyed about someone dying in their car. That really pisses me off. Life in general has a defined outcome - death - and this culture of safety really is a degenerate notion that attempts to sap our humanity (note: part of my ***** is that a reasonably priced, light-weight sportscar physically can't be built with today's auto regulations).
That's part of the reason I love motorcycles; by their inherent nature they can not be made passively safe - safety requires active participation from the rider. Even then there are risks, of course.
This discussion really has two components though: the degredation of the human spirit, and idiots who kill themselves by acting the fool.
Okay, now I'm rambling.
cdg
Joined
·
43 Posts
Re: Ignorance Is Not a Tort
Fortunately for you, and the uninformed mass (read liberals generally) ignorance and stupidity are not recognized causes of action in Federal or state courts. However, in the court of public opinion, you are guilty as charged. Wait a minute... The Captain could sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress. We could easily certify it as a class action given your posts on this site. That would get John Edwards' attention, he'd resign from the race (dollars over politics), and you'd be getting screwed by a fellow liberal. How poetic.
Fortunately for you, and the uninformed mass (read liberals generally) ignorance and stupidity are not recognized causes of action in Federal or state courts. However, in the court of public opinion, you are guilty as charged. Wait a minute... The Captain could sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress. We could easily certify it as a class action given your posts on this site. That would get John Edwards' attention, he'd resign from the race (dollars over politics), and you'd be getting screwed by a fellow liberal. How poetic.
Rider education is impotant, but so is common sense and mental maturity. On the day in 1965 that I turned 14, I walked into the local Highway Patrol office, took a 20 minute written exam and walked out with a valid motorcycle operator's license. Its probably a good thing that I did not own a bike at the time. By the end of that year, one of my neighborhood friends had hit and killed a 6-year-old girl on the street with his S-90, and another had crashed and sustained head injuries that left him with slurred speech and using a walker through highschool.
Would rider training have helped? I don't know. It may just be the psycho-social phenomenon that risk-takers are attracted to motorcycles. Add to that the fact that every movie involving motorcycles and virtually every TV ad for any type of vehicle features illegal and/or extremely dagerous driving, and you create a potentially disasterous mind-set in those weened on "Jackass" reruns.
It helps to keep me safer when I think about those old friends before slinging a leg over a bike.
Would rider training have helped? I don't know. It may just be the psycho-social phenomenon that risk-takers are attracted to motorcycles. Add to that the fact that every movie involving motorcycles and virtually every TV ad for any type of vehicle features illegal and/or extremely dagerous driving, and you create a potentially disasterous mind-set in those weened on "Jackass" reruns.
It helps to keep me safer when I think about those old friends before slinging a leg over a bike.
"That's part of the reason I love motorcycles; by their inherent nature they can not be made passively safe - safety requires active participation from the rider. Even then there are risks, of course."
HOLY SHYT! A guy with common sense rambled in here. Amazing! Not only does that quote above makes sense, but the whole damn thing did. I figure you to be KPauled to death soon, or you are destined to become one of the ZRX_Bullshyt dwarves. Good going.
HOLY SHYT! A guy with common sense rambled in here. Amazing! Not only does that quote above makes sense, but the whole damn thing did. I figure you to be KPauled to death soon, or you are destined to become one of the ZRX_Bullshyt dwarves. Good going.
Yeah the F650 is considered low hp, but it will go 0-60 in well under 5 seconds. Not bad.
I suppose that the HD newbie could have gotten himself into trouble on any bike, but I have to think that the weight of the HD makes it harder to handle for a new rider.
Interesting that you compare the bmw to your Nighthawk. I'm thinking about getting either an old Nighthawk or a F650 as a commuter/bad weather bike. If I can find the right Nighthawk the difference in price will make the decision for me, but the rainy season is coming soon, so I might have to go new.
I suppose that the HD newbie could have gotten himself into trouble on any bike, but I have to think that the weight of the HD makes it harder to handle for a new rider.
Interesting that you compare the bmw to your Nighthawk. I'm thinking about getting either an old Nighthawk or a F650 as a commuter/bad weather bike. If I can find the right Nighthawk the difference in price will make the decision for me, but the rainy season is coming soon, so I might have to go new.
Joined
·
5,447 Posts
Re: Buy a Honda
Yes, the wifes new Honda Elephant (Element) should run for quite a long time, before needing any major stuff done to it.
In fact, we are a 5 Honda household, if you count the lawn mower, and my CB350.
Her old car, an Isuzu Rodeo, has 200,000 miles on it, all original major components, except for the alternator. Even has the original muffler. My niece drives it now.
Yes, the wifes new Honda Elephant (Element) should run for quite a long time, before needing any major stuff done to it.
In fact, we are a 5 Honda household, if you count the lawn mower, and my CB350.
Her old car, an Isuzu Rodeo, has 200,000 miles on it, all original major components, except for the alternator. Even has the original muffler. My niece drives it now.
From zero to 90 the F650 was fast enough for a thrill. Getting to 100 and especially anything over 100, not so fast. But in reality who needs even over 85 speeds that often? The engine response and EFI was spot on with smoot power delivery.
I really liked my F650GS. I don't know where you live (NW, Seattle area maybe) but in Chicago the roads can be rough and I loved the way the Beemer soaked up the bumps with its long travel suspension. I didn't have to slow down for much of anything. I could attack road imperfections and do the occasional curb hop like I was on a dirt bike. It was a very comfortable bike with decent wind protection. Highway cruising at 70 to 85 was no problem. I took multiple 4 to 6 hour trips in comfort.
I just sold my 2002 for $6650 w4200 miles on it (I bought a Ducati ST3 this year). It was a Dakar wABS. A standard F650GS would probably sell for about $400 to $600 less I think. If you buy a used F650GS look for surging in 2001 and earlier models. BMW corrected this in 2002 but I heard as many as 1 in 6 F650GS's were affected by this in earlier models. Dealers can map most of it out but a test ride should let you know if it's a problem. Look for it in the 3000 to 4000 RPM range while accerlerating through it and at holding a steady throttle.
Good luck with whatever you buy.
I really liked my F650GS. I don't know where you live (NW, Seattle area maybe) but in Chicago the roads can be rough and I loved the way the Beemer soaked up the bumps with its long travel suspension. I didn't have to slow down for much of anything. I could attack road imperfections and do the occasional curb hop like I was on a dirt bike. It was a very comfortable bike with decent wind protection. Highway cruising at 70 to 85 was no problem. I took multiple 4 to 6 hour trips in comfort.
I just sold my 2002 for $6650 w4200 miles on it (I bought a Ducati ST3 this year). It was a Dakar wABS. A standard F650GS would probably sell for about $400 to $600 less I think. If you buy a used F650GS look for surging in 2001 and earlier models. BMW corrected this in 2002 but I heard as many as 1 in 6 F650GS's were affected by this in earlier models. Dealers can map most of it out but a test ride should let you know if it's a problem. Look for it in the 3000 to 4000 RPM range while accerlerating through it and at holding a steady throttle.
Good luck with whatever you buy.
Joined
·
1,538 Posts
kowalker,
That is one of the most logical and clearly stated posts I've ever seen on MO. Kudos to you for possessing enough common sense to stand-out. -Sean
That is one of the most logical and clearly stated posts I've ever seen on MO. Kudos to you for possessing enough common sense to stand-out. -Sean
In not thinking that all of these people might have benefitted from a training class, I think we are overlooking one important thing: that part of the idea of a training class is to teach people how to decide not to do stupid things. Here in Oregon, a motorcycle license is generally obtained by taking the beginning MSF class. (I was originally licensed elsewhere, Sacramento, in fact, but I have taken the MSF intermediate course.) Implicit in the curriculum of these classes is the idea of building your awareness of what you can and cannot safely do. So, any grad is probably less likely to do the type of dumb stunts that get them killed and us frowned upon and over-regulated. Spending time on the class bikes may even result in some of them buying an SV-650 rather than a ZX-10R, who knows.
Case in point: Last week, my sister's step-daughter, an 18-year old in North Carolina, was seriously injured when she accepted a ride with a 25-year old she hardly knew. I don't know what kind of bike he had, but I would assume it was on the extreme end. A police officer attempted to pull him over, and he decided to flee. He was going very fast when an unlicensed 14-year old pulled out in front of him, and he died in the crash. She had multiple fractures and soft tissue injuries, but will probably recover.
I seriously doubt that this guy had taken an MSF class. If he had, he might have had more awareness of his own abilities, and known when he was crossing from reasonable fun into blatant stupidity. (He might have at least learned that cops have radios, for God's sake!) As it stood, his only role models were probably the bikers that defy the laws of physics in Hollywood movies.
So, yes, I think that a safety class would probably have helped all three of the Sacramento statistic riders, as well as the man in North Carolina. None of them had unavoidable things happen to them. MSF classes would not just have given them additional skills to become faster squids; exposure to sane riding attitudes and mature riding role models might have changed their whole mindset. I know, you can't make a stupid person smart. But, these riders might have learned that even testosterone-sodden squids can have fun riding safely.
As far as additional bike regulation goes, if there is a new law, let it be this: MSF completion certificates should be required for the rental or purchase of "Biker Boyz" or "Torque."
Case in point: Last week, my sister's step-daughter, an 18-year old in North Carolina, was seriously injured when she accepted a ride with a 25-year old she hardly knew. I don't know what kind of bike he had, but I would assume it was on the extreme end. A police officer attempted to pull him over, and he decided to flee. He was going very fast when an unlicensed 14-year old pulled out in front of him, and he died in the crash. She had multiple fractures and soft tissue injuries, but will probably recover.
I seriously doubt that this guy had taken an MSF class. If he had, he might have had more awareness of his own abilities, and known when he was crossing from reasonable fun into blatant stupidity. (He might have at least learned that cops have radios, for God's sake!) As it stood, his only role models were probably the bikers that defy the laws of physics in Hollywood movies.
So, yes, I think that a safety class would probably have helped all three of the Sacramento statistic riders, as well as the man in North Carolina. None of them had unavoidable things happen to them. MSF classes would not just have given them additional skills to become faster squids; exposure to sane riding attitudes and mature riding role models might have changed their whole mindset. I know, you can't make a stupid person smart. But, these riders might have learned that even testosterone-sodden squids can have fun riding safely.
As far as additional bike regulation goes, if there is a new law, let it be this: MSF completion certificates should be required for the rental or purchase of "Biker Boyz" or "Torque."
Joined
·
1,538 Posts
No joke, first kowalker displays common sense and now christian, that's TWO posts in the same thread. I think this may be a record!
If I was able to express myself as clearly as they do, I might have ended up working at Cycle World or some other high falootin outfit like that. -Sean
If I was able to express myself as clearly as they do, I might have ended up working at Cycle World or some other high falootin outfit like that. -Sean
Joined
·
17,448 Posts
I heard that the Pentagon was going to contract Kpaul to take over the interrogations of al-Qaeda prisoners but that the International War Crimes tribunal found out and squelched it on humanitarian grounds. The Pentagon was going to have him moderate the prisoners as they were forced to engage in political bulletin boards and chatrooms.
Nothing worse than sleep deprivation, chinese water torture, keelhauling or drawing-and-quartering are allowed under International Law. So, giving tham a "Kpauling" is forbidden.
Nothing worse than sleep deprivation, chinese water torture, keelhauling or drawing-and-quartering are allowed under International Law. So, giving tham a "Kpauling" is forbidden.
I like the idea of rider education. Some knowledge is better than none. I taught in a graduate school for 10 years (MBA program) and found out that the classroom left the students sorely lacking in management ability. Their real education took place on the job. Same goes for motorcycle riding. I don't want to denigrate MSF training. But, to learn how to ride on the street, you need to get that type of experience. Track days and racing are ok too but they don't throw deer, cars, trucks, cow poop, birds, etc. at you. I think you need to get out there and ride a lot, but don't be too bold. Ride with more experienced riders and watch what they do. Just don't follow them blindly. Be cautious. Something to do with no old-bold soldiers left after a war. Most of all, be lucky. You cant beat that.
The lean angle on a stock dyna or softail, is way more than the riding abilities of 75% of cruiser riders and 70% of sportbike riders.
I'd bet a years salary that virtually all "running off the road" accidents ran off the road with at least 10 more degrees of lean left in thier bikes.
I'd bet a years salary that virtually all "running off the road" accidents ran off the road with at least 10 more degrees of lean left in thier bikes.
41 - 60 of 103 Posts
