The pic link's broke.
BTW, 1st post!
BTW, 1st post!
46196
I'm not defending them, but just a few thoughts...
All frame sliders on bike's with a full fairing require that a hole be cut through the fairing, it's that "no two objects can occupy the same space" rule... Most all frame sliders (even high quality ones; Cycle Cat, etc.) do use the engine mount bolt (it's the most ridgid part of any frame)... Only the bike manufacturer (Honda in this case) can control how close the engine mount bolt is to the fairing bracket, not an aftermarket company. As for hardened vs. unhardened bolts there are volumes of engineering data regarding life-cycle fatigue and impact failures, exceeding elastic yields, etc... To greatly generalize, hardness = brittleness... The harder the steel is, the more brittle it becomes and more prone to breaking (breaking may actually be a benefit in a design such as this and be intentional)... The Titanic wouldn't have sunk when it hit that iceberg if it didn't have so much carbon in it's chemistry (high carbon = high hardness {again, generally speaking})... Again, I'm not defending the maker of these frame sliders as they do sound marginal from what you described, but I'd be interested in seeing your design for a frame slider system, that doesn't use the engine mounts (strongest location), and doesn't extend pass the fairing (what you are trying to protect)... It would be an interesting design to say the least.
All frame sliders on bike's with a full fairing require that a hole be cut through the fairing, it's that "no two objects can occupy the same space" rule... Most all frame sliders (even high quality ones; Cycle Cat, etc.) do use the engine mount bolt (it's the most ridgid part of any frame)... Only the bike manufacturer (Honda in this case) can control how close the engine mount bolt is to the fairing bracket, not an aftermarket company. As for hardened vs. unhardened bolts there are volumes of engineering data regarding life-cycle fatigue and impact failures, exceeding elastic yields, etc... To greatly generalize, hardness = brittleness... The harder the steel is, the more brittle it becomes and more prone to breaking (breaking may actually be a benefit in a design such as this and be intentional)... The Titanic wouldn't have sunk when it hit that iceberg if it didn't have so much carbon in it's chemistry (high carbon = high hardness {again, generally speaking})... Again, I'm not defending the maker of these frame sliders as they do sound marginal from what you described, but I'd be interested in seeing your design for a frame slider system, that doesn't use the engine mounts (strongest location), and doesn't extend pass the fairing (what you are trying to protect)... It would be an interesting design to say the least.
Re: I'm not defending them, but just a few thoughts...
You make good points. The VTR does not have a full fairing, but the fairing does indeed cover the engine mount point. There is another mounting point a bit further back, but it would mean drilling a hole in your knee, unless you have really long legs. Probably not the most ideal situation.
The biggest problem with the location of the engine mount bolt is that it is right where the fairing tapers to a thin point, so drilling at that point removes a much larger portion of the available fairing. Not having the bike next to me, I'm not sure if there is another mounting point further forward.
However, a bad design does not become great because it is not easy to come up with a better solution. This is probably why many of the better known brands simply do not provide sliders for this model.
You make good points. The VTR does not have a full fairing, but the fairing does indeed cover the engine mount point. There is another mounting point a bit further back, but it would mean drilling a hole in your knee, unless you have really long legs. Probably not the most ideal situation.
The biggest problem with the location of the engine mount bolt is that it is right where the fairing tapers to a thin point, so drilling at that point removes a much larger portion of the available fairing. Not having the bike next to me, I'm not sure if there is another mounting point further forward.
However, a bad design does not become great because it is not easy to come up with a better solution. This is probably why many of the better known brands simply do not provide sliders for this model.
Re: I'm not defending them, but just a few thoughts...
I agree, a bad design does not become great because it is not easy to come up with a better solution... But I think a lot of what made this a bad design (not all), is bad marketing... They should have been more upfront with you about the reality of installing their frame sliders on this model bike.
I agree, a bad design does not become great because it is not easy to come up with a better solution... But I think a lot of what made this a bad design (not all), is bad marketing... They should have been more upfront with you about the reality of installing their frame sliders on this model bike.
I installed a set of Moko sliders on my ZZR1200 after comments from folks on the www.zzr1200.net site. I have yet to drop the bike, God willing, but based on comments from those that have, at slower speeds they seem to function, particularly the parking lot tip-overs. Every bike has different problems related to mounting, but these bolt on nicely with out any cutting of the body work. Plus, they look expensive (which they were!) and seem to compliment the bike rather than detract. This is the site I purchased them from: http://www.whaccessories.com
I installed a set of Moko sliders on my ZZR1200 after comments from folks on the www.zzr1200.net site. I have yet to drop the bike, God willing, but based on comments from those that have, at slower speeds they seem to function, particularly the parking lot tip-overs. Every bike has different problems related to mounting, but these bolt on nicely with out any cutting of the body work. Plus, they look expensive (which they were!) and seem to compliment the bike rather than detract. This is the site I purchased them from: http://www.whaccessories.com Forgot to add: they have some products for the VTR, but I would call the site owner and talk to him about it. He was very helpful when I spoke with him.
Frame Sliders
I've got Intuitive frame sliders on the R1. They mount on the engine mount bolts on each side and on the swingarm bolt on the right side.
No drilling necessary, but that's a product (I'm sure unintentional) of the R1's fairing design. Many many sport bikes need their fairings drilled so the slider can poke through.
Big question is....why the @#$% don't manufacturers just build frame sliders into the design of their bikes? How obvious is this?
Possibility number one: Manufacturing cost. The sliders from Intuitive cost $30 for the tops (both sides) and $60 for the right side low. We're talking about three pieces of nylon and three bolts....most of the cost is marketing and packaging. Could the big four do it for $10 a bike? You bet they could. So they don't do it because it costs too much.
Possibility number two: Owners of bikes with frame sliders buy fewer $300 plastic fairings after tipovers, and this is a major profit center for bike manufacturers. I'm cynical enough (and I KNOW mile_eater is cynical enough) to believe this.
However, the cost of replacing plastic on bikes contributes markedly to their insurance costs. This isn't just for sportbikes. Check out the FJR1300 and imagine a tipover on one of those. That not be cheap. Little low-speed tipover results in $1100 worth of plastic replacement; add a mark on the frame and the bike is totaled. AND the cost of insurance is a major consideration when considering buying a plastic-faired bike. Thus, in the long run bike manufacturers would be smart to build tipover protection into fairings. Fewer expensive plastic fairing parts sold, but more bikes.
There are/were a few bikes with fairing protection built in (Honda ST1100/1300, for example; the Tuono comes with crash bungs). The best of these in my mind is the CBR1000F. You can't even tell where the frame sliders are because they're integrated so well, but a tipover costs about $50.
I've got Intuitive frame sliders on the R1. They mount on the engine mount bolts on each side and on the swingarm bolt on the right side.
No drilling necessary, but that's a product (I'm sure unintentional) of the R1's fairing design. Many many sport bikes need their fairings drilled so the slider can poke through.
Big question is....why the @#$% don't manufacturers just build frame sliders into the design of their bikes? How obvious is this?
Possibility number one: Manufacturing cost. The sliders from Intuitive cost $30 for the tops (both sides) and $60 for the right side low. We're talking about three pieces of nylon and three bolts....most of the cost is marketing and packaging. Could the big four do it for $10 a bike? You bet they could. So they don't do it because it costs too much.
Possibility number two: Owners of bikes with frame sliders buy fewer $300 plastic fairings after tipovers, and this is a major profit center for bike manufacturers. I'm cynical enough (and I KNOW mile_eater is cynical enough) to believe this.
However, the cost of replacing plastic on bikes contributes markedly to their insurance costs. This isn't just for sportbikes. Check out the FJR1300 and imagine a tipover on one of those. That not be cheap. Little low-speed tipover results in $1100 worth of plastic replacement; add a mark on the frame and the bike is totaled. AND the cost of insurance is a major consideration when considering buying a plastic-faired bike. Thus, in the long run bike manufacturers would be smart to build tipover protection into fairings. Fewer expensive plastic fairing parts sold, but more bikes.
There are/were a few bikes with fairing protection built in (Honda ST1100/1300, for example; the Tuono comes with crash bungs). The best of these in my mind is the CBR1000F. You can't even tell where the frame sliders are because they're integrated so well, but a tipover costs about $50.
Frame sliders make your bike go alot faster, just like using race compound tires on the street makes you faster., Don't forget the carbon fiber bits too, you'll cut a few dozen grams with those alone.
I think nbyers is on to some good solutions. Either the motorcycle manufacturers build them into to the bike or they allow easy installation without cutting or drilling. The motorcycle manufacturers would increase their market for sport bikes cause theoretically the cost to insure would be reduced. To me it's a win-win for the bike makers. Market it as a special accessory and mark it up to $50. The motorcycle manufacturers make money at the same time they lower insurance costs for the owner. It would be short sightedness to count on the $300 fairing costs as a way to make money. Get only six guys to buy the frame savers you make it up.
Good ideas nbyers.
Good ideas nbyers.
I'm still searching for a good set of sliders for my 1000RR. It made it through its first season without a drop but I'm paranoid as hell. The engine mount bolts on the 1000 don't line up with the vents in the fairing and I'm really hesitant to cut gaping holes in it. BUt then again, if it goes down it's 50 dollars instead of 300. There are some no-cut sliders available in australia (raven racing) but I can't find a dealer here that will offer them. THey use a crossbar cantilevered from the engine mounts for support.
Can anyone recommend a good slider for the 1000RR?
Can anyone recommend a good slider for the 1000RR?
However....
In this case he makes a plausible argument. However, some say if the Titanic had not tried to correct its course, i.e., hit the iceberg head on, while trying to slow down, it would have survived. To me he makes an unsupported leap to generalize about the Titanic materials which are the same as all ships of that era and beyond. I agree with his hardened argument to a point. If the steel is soft, it deforms easily something good for a slider bad for an engine mount. You can have something for nothing. Engineering is full of compromises . . I think the best solutions are proposed by nbyers above, which says the bike manufacturers should design and market frame sliders.
In this case he makes a plausible argument. However, some say if the Titanic had not tried to correct its course, i.e., hit the iceberg head on, while trying to slow down, it would have survived. To me he makes an unsupported leap to generalize about the Titanic materials which are the same as all ships of that era and beyond. I agree with his hardened argument to a point. If the steel is soft, it deforms easily something good for a slider bad for an engine mount. You can have something for nothing. Engineering is full of compromises . . I think the best solutions are proposed by nbyers above, which says the bike manufacturers should design and market frame sliders.
Re: However....
Brittle steel on the Titanic was covered extensively on a History Channel show a few years ago. Yard workers had saved a few rivits and bits of iron as keepsakes and these were passed down as heirlooms.
When tested and subjected to extremely cold salt water they became brittle and shattered like glass. The conclusion was that the metalurgy was wrong, and when the ship bounced along the side of the burg the rivit heads instead of deforming merely popped off, allowing the seams to open and sink the ship. That's why no "30 ft gash" was found
Brittle steel on the Titanic was covered extensively on a History Channel show a few years ago. Yard workers had saved a few rivits and bits of iron as keepsakes and these were passed down as heirlooms.
When tested and subjected to extremely cold salt water they became brittle and shattered like glass. The conclusion was that the metalurgy was wrong, and when the ship bounced along the side of the burg the rivit heads instead of deforming merely popped off, allowing the seams to open and sink the ship. That's why no "30 ft gash" was found
Re: However....
Good point about compromises and engineering. However, I think which ever bolt is decided to be better, hardened or soft, the same type should be used for both sides, not hard on the left, soft on the right.
More importantly, I don't think either type of bolt should have to have 6.5mm less threading to take up the load.
Good point about compromises and engineering. However, I think which ever bolt is decided to be better, hardened or soft, the same type should be used for both sides, not hard on the left, soft on the right.
More importantly, I don't think either type of bolt should have to have 6.5mm less threading to take up the load.
Hey, please study a bit more.
The number on the bolt refers to its strength. This "hardness = brittleness logic" of yours can't be applied on this case. Besides, breaking can never be a benefit on a bolt life.
There is other important point here: any manufacturer should advise the buyer that he might have to drill a hole in something, even if it's obvious. And any manufacturer should provide an instruction manual, it is a costumer right.
The number on the bolt refers to its strength. This "hardness = brittleness logic" of yours can't be applied on this case. Besides, breaking can never be a benefit on a bolt life.
There is other important point here: any manufacturer should advise the buyer that he might have to drill a hole in something, even if it's obvious. And any manufacturer should provide an instruction manual, it is a costumer right.
ThereÂ’s a British outfit on eBay that markets some VTR 1000 "fairing protectors" that intrigue me.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=25632&item=7933126679&rd=1
It looks like these protectors simply replace four mushroom-head hex screws that attach the fairing to the frame (two on each side). Should take about 2 minutes to install.
From the photograph it looks like the lower one would hit exactly where I picked up some fairing rash during a low speed spill. Unfortunately, that spill also rashed my engine case and a bar end weight, neither of which would be protected by these devices.
Since the fairing screws are only 4 or 5 mm, these things clearly wonÂ’t help much during a crash at speed. Nevertheless, they look like they might be effective during one of those annoying 0 MPH tip-overs. I think IÂ’ll get a set for the old Superhawk and see what happens.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=25632&item=7933126679&rd=1
It looks like these protectors simply replace four mushroom-head hex screws that attach the fairing to the frame (two on each side). Should take about 2 minutes to install.
From the photograph it looks like the lower one would hit exactly where I picked up some fairing rash during a low speed spill. Unfortunately, that spill also rashed my engine case and a bar end weight, neither of which would be protected by these devices.
Since the fairing screws are only 4 or 5 mm, these things clearly wonÂ’t help much during a crash at speed. Nevertheless, they look like they might be effective during one of those annoying 0 MPH tip-overs. I think IÂ’ll get a set for the old Superhawk and see what happens.
Yes, you'll save a few grams with carbon fiber, IF you replace the original bits with carbon fiber. Most folks (here in central AR, at least) just put a CF cover-type thingy on their bikes, and sometimes just CF stickers, increasing the weight! Maybe I'm just bitter and cynical...
Chango.
Chango.
Frame sliders that don't mount on the engine mount bolts are useless
Frame sliders that don't mount on engine mount bolts are useless. No, they're worse than useless. They can actually damage your fairings more than if you had no frame sliders. Avoid sliders that mount on brackets or non-engine mount bolts.
Ummm, I know first hand
RE: cutting fairings. It's no big deal. A hole saw is readily available/cheap. Just drill a guide hole using a drill bit, then use the hole for a hole saw rig on your cordless drill. Heck, even a dremel will work. You won't notice the hole in your fairings -- the slider fills it up.
Frame sliders that don't mount on engine mount bolts are useless. No, they're worse than useless. They can actually damage your fairings more than if you had no frame sliders. Avoid sliders that mount on brackets or non-engine mount bolts.
Ummm, I know first hand
RE: cutting fairings. It's no big deal. A hole saw is readily available/cheap. Just drill a guide hole using a drill bit, then use the hole for a hole saw rig on your cordless drill. Heck, even a dremel will work. You won't notice the hole in your fairings -- the slider fills it up.
Re: Frame Sliders
Yup, and I can attest to the fact they work great on my 90 CBR. Over the years the bike has been on one side or another 5 times, and damage has been limited to scratches on the cover pieces. It is a crime all faired bikes don't have something similar. Gravity will always win eventually.
Yup, and I can attest to the fact they work great on my 90 CBR. Over the years the bike has been on one side or another 5 times, and damage has been limited to scratches on the cover pieces. It is a crime all faired bikes don't have something similar. Gravity will always win eventually.
Re: However....
KP is right - that steel was the same as every other ship of that era. There was a Civil Engineering professor on one of my exam committees who specialized in fracture of iron/steel, and who got some work analyzing bits of the Titanic after it was found. Before everything got started, one of the other professors asked, "so, why did the Titanic sink?" He replied, "Well, the steel was crappy, but no one seems to realize that all the steel from back then was terrible. Personally, I think I think it sunk because of a navigation error. But hey, I'll do fatigue tests at $200/hour all day long if everyone's still complaining about the crap steel!"
KP is right - that steel was the same as every other ship of that era. There was a Civil Engineering professor on one of my exam committees who specialized in fracture of iron/steel, and who got some work analyzing bits of the Titanic after it was found. Before everything got started, one of the other professors asked, "so, why did the Titanic sink?" He replied, "Well, the steel was crappy, but no one seems to realize that all the steel from back then was terrible. Personally, I think I think it sunk because of a navigation error. But hey, I'll do fatigue tests at $200/hour all day long if everyone's still complaining about the crap steel!"
Re: Frame sliders that don't mount on the engine mount bolts are useless
I liket o give my cents on a hands on test on this sliders. I installed a set of these Motovation (you call it motoRvation - its probably the same) frame sliders on my previous VFR800 which crashed on the track. The knob took a fair share of the impact. On examination, the mounting bolt has bent about 15 degress, the knob has ground off about 6mm to 12 mm in a splayed angle.
These sliders are not meant to protect at the speed I was going ( I reckon 90kmh at the turn). However, I came away deciding that these knobs did their job pretty well in reducing the damage to the fairing. I ended up only needing to patch up some cracks in the fairings. No fairing replacement was needed.
I am now on another VFR - with the same sliders installed - through a hole drilled into the fairing. I guess that hole in the fairing is worth it.
I liket o give my cents on a hands on test on this sliders. I installed a set of these Motovation (you call it motoRvation - its probably the same) frame sliders on my previous VFR800 which crashed on the track. The knob took a fair share of the impact. On examination, the mounting bolt has bent about 15 degress, the knob has ground off about 6mm to 12 mm in a splayed angle.
These sliders are not meant to protect at the speed I was going ( I reckon 90kmh at the turn). However, I came away deciding that these knobs did their job pretty well in reducing the damage to the fairing. I ended up only needing to patch up some cracks in the fairings. No fairing replacement was needed.
I am now on another VFR - with the same sliders installed - through a hole drilled into the fairing. I guess that hole in the fairing is worth it.
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