[ogre23]

I am, in fact, of the opinion that the government *does not* have the right to make us get driver's licenses, or pay income tax.

The government's roads... What a complete load. The government forcibly removes money from your wallet, and uses it to build roads, and you think that the roads belong to the government. Hot damn. If I ever get too hard up I'll just come mug you. You seem to think that theft re-assigns ownership.

The government is supposed to be *our* servant. Not the other way around.

As far as living in this country? I'm here because it's supposed to be the stronghold of Liberty and Freedom, and I still, somehow, believe that it can be returned to that state. When I finally lose that, hopefully I'll have found somewhere else to be. Why are you here? There are plenty of over-regulated and regimented hellholes on this planet already. Stop working to make this another one.

-Kawazuki

 

[tumbler]

Okay I wrote this really long retort and then I got disconnected, damn dial up! Here's the gist: Let's stick to this particular helmet law, as I have said in other posts, not because I feel like I'm being out debated, but because We are getting off track. This legislation is for young riders (under 21) and new to the sport/hobby riders. This people probably don't have an appreciation for for how quickly and how badly that can get hurt on a street bike. Saying hey you need to wear at least a minimum amount of protection is a good idea. We can debate the meaning of what freedom in America is, but this law isn't tyrannical, oppressive, or unjust.

 

[tumbler]

Re: Tumbler

I thought that I pointed out earlier that not wearing a helmet can affect others, directly and in directly. There should only be laws that protect people from getting killed. So what Eron execs didn't was okay. We don't need laws for fraud and other non-lethal crimes?

 

[ValknMag]

Re: Tumbler

You, however, are advocating laws to keep people from getting hurt feelings.

 

[longride]

Re: Tumbler

I'm really trying to be patient here, and didn't Enron execs bilk many out of millions? They stole from people. What does that have to do with not wearing a helmet? Nothing I believe. And no, you didn't prove that affects anyone of any consequence but ME. Your "proof" can be regurgitated for any activity from online surfing to tiddly winks to couch potatos. What I do with my life should be mine, as long as it hurts nobody else. That is the ideal we should expect in this country. The freedom to be left alone. Whatever happens to me on a motorcycle, helmet or no, is my own personal responsibility, not yours, the government, or anyone else. Understanding that concept, while difficult, certainly makes sense.

 

[ValknMag]

If we stuck to this one particular helmet law, there wouldn't be much to discuss. This thread was really started by your post trying to make the point that government laws should be all or nothing. Responding specifically to your post above, you say, "Saying hey you need to wear at least a minimum of protection is a good idea." Saying something is a good idea, and forcing people to do something, are not the same. I agree that beginners should wear helmets. Ohio law says that riders under 21 must wear helmets, and all riders their first year have 'Novice' on their motorcycle endorsement and are required to wear helmets. I think those are both VERY good ideas. I didn't know about all the dangers involved in riding when I got into it, and I doubt I know them all now. This seems more like something which should be addressed through training, rather than helmet laws. For example, I bought my first motorcycle while I still had only a learner's permit. I don't think anyone should be able to register a motorcycle without a motorcycle license. The Ohio riders test was about 10 minutes in a parking lot. No training, other than enough to pass the test, required. I would require passing an MSF or equivalent class before granting a motorcycle endorsement. This way, you have (as much as possible) an educated riding public, eyes open to the dangers of motorcycling, who can then be trusted to make their own decisions regarding their own lives.

 

[VMan_1]

Re: Tumbler

Wow, Tumbler, your inability to comprehend the issues is exhausting. Yes, Enron execs

are responsible for the "damages" they caused others.

 

[obandoj]

Re: Helmets for everybody, in cars...body armour in bright colors for two wheelers!

The helmet broke his neck? He should have laid her down to slow down first, since hitting the front brake would have made him go over the handlebars, right?

Bull*&#$.

 

[VMan_1]

Re: Tumbler

PERFECT!!!

 

[tumbler]

If you don't like pay income tax find or start a country that doesn't have it. You don't have to work here, but if you chose to you have to pay taxes. These taxes are allocated by ELECTED officials. Sorry this country is too big with too many different opinions for you to get decide where your individual extorted taxes go to. If you have a better way for 300,000,000 people to be completely free, but protected from tyranny and oppression (which having to wear a helmet is neither, just maybe uncomfortable), and not have to pay taxes, man then you have my vote for supreme chancellor and I definately want to live. But this is the real world where people take advantage of loop-holes (and it's not all corrupt politicians and laywes, it is plenty of everyday Joes), and people who either cannot see or don't care how their actions might affect others. Because of these people and those who felt cheated and wanted to to get back at a person, company, or the government, maybe in just somelittle almost insignificant way (like a kids who once shoplifted some baseball cards from a large store because he didn't have the money), this is ultimately why this country is the way it is. If no one ever stole or murdered, we wouldn't have laws against these things would we?

 

[tumbler]

Re: Tumbler

Hurt feelings I'm talking about people losing money property, or being hurt through no fault of their own.

 

[tumbler]

Re: Tumbler

Who pays if you crash and not only can't work but are a vegetable because you're brain got scrambled? Have you ever ridden a track day? Do you can on one of your long oraties when they tell you that you and everyone riding has to wear protective gear.

 

[longride]

Re: Tumbler

Same person pays if I crash in my car and my brain gets scrambled or I wore my helmet and became a quad. I think Jerry Nadeau got his brain scrambled at a track, and he was wearing a helmet in a car. Who pays for him? Tracks are private entities that can make any rules they like. They fall under the private domain, just as golf clubs can regulate who can be a member and who can't. So, to sum it up, tracks can make their own rules because they are in the private domain, so they can do things like exclude Blacks and women legally. Get that point? With me so far? Next, the person that pays for me getting hurt is the same one that pays if I get injured in a car crash or even if I have my helmet on and bite it on a bike. Since I pay insurance for that coverage, it's of no consequence to you which way I get injured. I really think you need to re-think your position, as it seems you are grasping at straws.

 

[tumbler]

Re: Tumbler

I've comprehended everything you and longride have said but apparently you are think you opinions and beliefs can only be the right one. If you wreck and can't work someone other than you pays. If you are hurt bad enough someone else has to take care of might be someone who has never ridden a motorcycle and thinks that they are too dangerous. Do I think the government should take away our riding privileges, nope, should the government, in this case PA state legislature pass a law that means some people who a probably new to the sport have to take a little extra precautions along with the few people that are experienced streetriders that fit into this group because it is far too unrealistic to take every individual rider on a case by case basis, yep. Am I going to write any politicians one way or the other, nope, it's really not a big enough deal to me either way. Would I write if they tried to make motorcycles illegal, like they did with three wheelers years back, or tried to instituted hp restriction like they have in France, hell yes I would. Do I pick my battles and not make a ruckus over every little thing, yes, why, so when I do speak up and have something that I truely feel is important to say I am much more likely to be heard because the other person isn't worn out from all of my whining.

 

[rsheidler]

Actually, if I remember my 4th grade math correctly, I think it would be 0.1% (not 1%) of the time the the "Godfather of Soul" rides without a helmet. Pretty cool that James Brown posts here, huh?



(Just given you a little good-natured crap)



I do understand James Brown's viewpoint -- I wear a helmet 100% of the time that I ride any 2 wheeled vehicle (as well as when I ski) but I fully support the right to chose otherwise. I also support the right of Iranian women to appear in public without wearing chadors, the right of gay and lesbian couples to marry, and lots of other "rights" that do not really effect me personally. I also am concerned about many issues that DO effect me.



Being the self-centered sod that I am, I am most concerned with those issues that effect me personnaly, followed by those that effect others who are closest to me. After that, I have to look at the relative degree of injustice. To me, Iranian women being forced to wear the chador is a greater injustice than PA motorcyclists being forced to wear helmets.



Like our friend James Brown, I will vote against helmet laws, etc, but I simply do not have time or energy to tilt against ALL the windmills out there.



Bob

 

[646]

Re: Tumbler

So what makes you think a helmet would have made a difference in your Grandfathers accident? Can you guarentee that he would not have suffered the same fate?

 

[jaypuck]

Re: Hey Puck!

lookin like it. I guess some people never get tired of saying the same thing.

 

[longride]

Hey, he IS the hardest workin' man in show business! Mr. Excitement, Mr. Dynamite.......

 

[ValknMag]

Re: Tumbler

Sorry, I thought you were referring back to grandmother watching grandfather die.

Okay, here's my last post on the subject. We have two completely opposite views of what a government is supposed to do. My feeling is that what was laid out in the constitution is what we should have--the gov't protects people from one another, and leaves you alone to sink or swim on your own. Yes, this has changed over the years and through necessity government powers have broadened, but they've gone too far. There should be (in my mind) environmental laws, which were not forseen at the time the constitution was framed. This falls under protecting us from one another. It seems that you feel the government has a big box of rights, and gives them to us occasionally when it thinks we've been good boys and girls. The fathers of this country (Whoops! My political incorrectness is showing!) felt that the people had all the rights, and had to, by their consent, give up some of those rights on a piece-by-piece basis in order to get along. That is, we must be willing to give up the right to drink and drive, in order to maintain society. Seems that if such a thing didn't exist, all of us here today would vote in favor of such a thing, right? Anyhow, the important thing is that the rights flow from the people to the government, and not vice-versa. That is the gist of the 10th amendment, that you don't have to wait for the government to grant you permission to ride a motorcycle. It is your right until such time as legislators decide that it is pushing up insurance costs too much. Now, using my philosophy as a basis, I would point out that if I were riding a motorcycle with or without a helmet, or walking down the street, or sitting in my living room, and I got struck by a car, I would prefer that the government not get involved in the health care aspects. I don't think that's what the government is for. Vehicular laws should be used to punish the driver, and I could bring civil suit against him or his family, because he is responsible. Many people of a liberal bent feel that since we already have X laws on the books where the government provides money and services, X+1 laws is better, then X+2 laws, etc. Government payments for health care are a bad move, and using the that bad move as a foundation for more bad laws is...well...bad.

 

[nokneedragin]

First off, ride without a helmet, no skin off my nose.

point B, have enough insurance to make sure no one else has to take on the burden of your injuries, and make sure the insurance covers motorcycle related accedents (this is called being responsible for your own d*mm self).

On more thing (not stiring the pot, just curious).

What system do yous guys who hate taxes (not that I love them), propose to replace it. Every system I have heard of either send us to anarchy, economic ruin, or double the actual taxes that I pay (being a low paid workin slob).

Just curious, not searchin for a flame war.