[sportbikebandit]

Once again longride is wrong again...

Exhibit 1

" In attendance from Yamaha Corp were Bob Starr, Ed Burke, and many Yamaha executives from Japan and Cypress, California. STAR DAYS 99 was the first public showing of the new Yamaha 2000 Star line up. All the models were available for demo rides."

see more facts at link

Exhibit 2

"Honda executives in attendance included T. Arima, vice president of the Honda Motorcycle division; Mark Pearlstine, assistant vice president of the Honda Rider’s Club of America and Rider Education; Silvio Carrara, vice president of Motorcycle Service; PBTF board member Wayne Toyota, senior manager of Advertising; Gary Kessler, vice president of Human Resources; and HRCA manager Charlie Keller." more

Exhibit 3

"In the U.S., each of these ventures was greeted with applause. Kawasaki's Lincoln factory was seen as a model of Japanese productivity and worker-management relations. Kawasaki Motors even made nationwide television news in October 1981 when it lent eleven of its employees to Lincoln's city government so that it would not have to lay them off. Kawasaki symbolized the Japanese manufacturer's commitment to lifetime employment." more

 

[sportbikebandit]

Japan executives maybe more down to earth than American counterparts

How can Honda take American workers and engineers and kick butt over American ran companies?

"But the motorcycle plant experience reassured Honda's Japanese managers. "We didn't find significant differences between American and Japanese workers," said Toshikata Amino, a now-retired marketing executive sent to Ohio because he spoke English." From Huge risk of building U.S. factories paid off for both Honda, Ohio

Perhaps Japanese managers listen more. Also their salaries aren't 100 times their average worker like the typical GM executive

 

[ofreen]

You know what? I think I'd rather have a 65-68 Mustang built the way I want it than any Ferrari.

 

[The_Aerodynamic_Head]

Re: Once again longride is wrong again...

in defense of longride...your citations say merely that the Japanese execws were present, not that they ride. And as it is reasonable to assume that this was a work-related and work-sponsored event for them, their "passion" for the sport is also not established.

So he is not demonstably wrong on those points.

 

[The_Aerodynamic_Head]

That's fair, with a caveat.

Harleys are made in the upper midwest, which has a riding season roughly four to six months long, with cold, hard winters. I therefore feel justified in expressing skepticism in your assertion that "Willie G rides every day." And even if he did, this is merely evidence that he understands the social good of riding, for example, or may be due to any of a number of causes, and does not constitute demonstrated, incontravertable proof of "passion" on his part. And even if it did so demonstate, we have yet to establish that "passion" is necessary to build a quality ride. I point you to your own borderline-racist comment about the Japanese.

Secondly, you point out that they were loosing ground to the British in the 60s, despite the probabliity that British quality control may not have been better. (I contend that British quality was better, but not as good as that of the Japanese during the same period, hence the sales results of that time.) But even accepting your assertion that Harley quality was no worse than the British, fine. If you'll notice, I never stated that build quality was the one determinig factor. (Although, in personal digression, I can state that after two Harleys, I'll be happy to own another one when they can spend on bolts and washers that don't rust...even my '78 Caddy has such minimum basic parts standards, like galvanization.) What I do claim, to use your example, is that the Brits must have offered *something* that Harley didn't in the 60s, whether it was quality or "soul" or handling or price point or some other such. The Brits MUST have had something over Harley, for the simple reason that they sold when Harleys didn't.

Therefore, my comment about competition was not meant, I hope you'll see, as a derogatory comment against Harley, but was intended to point out a basic truth of human organizations. That is: without outside stimulus (in the form of competition) ANY society (governmental, corporate, or otherwise) will not improve, for there will be no apparent need, and will wither and die. This is a necessary part of natural selection. To wit: the reason Harley had its lunch handed to it in the 60s by the British and Japanese was because they had no real competition in the post-war years in the big-bike market, (as Indian was realistically defunct), and got fat and lazy. Evolve or die. (I further contend, purely from personal experience with the brand, and only as personal observation, not necessarily as rational argument, that the quality that Harley has now, which gives it an advantage over its competitors, is not stellar build quality, though that seems good enough, but rather their marketing department. for the Japanese, you might argue that specsheet superiority is their magic bullet. If so, I might respond that the magic bullet for Harley is their ad group.) Be all that as it may, if you overspecialize, you breed in weakness; another law of natural selection.

This was my justification for the purchase of Buell, that Harley uses them for development, primarily to be accomplished in the arena of racing, so that even Harley, who does not race directly, benefits from racing, as, I argue, does the entire sport. Thus my first assertion that a healthy racing industry works to the good even of those who aren't all that interested in it. My second assertion came from the first, and was simply that even those riders uninterested in racing ought to care about its survival. As they say about the culture wars against religion: first they came for the Jews, and the christians were silent. then they came for the Buddists, and the Christians were silent. Then they came for the Christians, and no one was left to help. Likewise the riding culture and industry and sport. If the Tru Bruthorhood stands by while the gub'ment goes after the Racer Boyz, soon there won't be anyone left to help when the gub'ment goes after the cruiser riders.

And lastly, the reason my posts are long is largely because of the willful imprecision in many remarks. Ad hominem attack and ideological invective do prove the case, so I try to avoid those, and accuracy and precision take time, and apparently, space. I hope that, although somewhat verbose, no one walks away from my substantive posts unclear as to my meaning or intent. If they do, I can only resort to the question of whether sufficient care was taken in critical and careful reading.

 

[The_Aerodynamic_Head]

Not far enough...I can't reach my outdoor rotisserie! And my corporate sponsors are at the door!

 

[40611]

Re: Whoa!, there, Tex.

To Longride - thanks for your respectful reply. It goes a long way towards making my point.

Peace

PS Here are the links for you:

http://growthcentral.com/

http://wwwa.britannica.com/eb/article-78001