[jamesohoh7]

A very entertaining race right up until Barros took out Jacque. Also probably the last, best chance the 2-strokes had to win this year. If anyone was watching that race, there was no way Rossi was going to get past Barros and Jacque and make it stick. Too bad Hopkins was out with a broken hand.



Would've been sweet...



-James (an unabashed 2-stroke fan)

 

[17693]

Honda wins again. And they're will to pay every penny they've got to keep it that way.

 

[rsheidler]

Huhhhhhh???



Are you suggesting that Honda paid Barros to take out Jacques? If anything, this was the one race where Honda's money could NOT buy the victory -- only racing luck could have done that. Honda and/or Rossi must have some good Karma going for them!

 

[17693]

I would never suggest for a moment that Honda be so bold as to pay for people to throw races. What I mean to say is that Honda has the most money to spend on racing, be it signing the best talent or paying for the best engineering. In this case Honda's deep pockets make it very difficult for anyone else to compete. I would love more than anything to see the little guy take a few races from Honda, but with the way things have been going I just don't see that happening

 

[CONMAN]

Well!, Well!, It looks like the golden boy of Moto Gp had one handed to him. What luck to

have the two guys in front of you crash on the

last couple of laps. I don't think he would have gotten around the 2 stroke bikes on that day.

 

[417]

Re: Honda: Its not about money its about philosophy

What it seems to me is that Honda wins most of the time, not because of money necessarily, but because they dare to be different. Its like the old man is still riding on their shoulder there somewhere. Remember their return to GPs with the NR500 - it didn't win but taught them a lot. So they bring out the NS500 triple and it did the trick against the others fours. Then to get more speed they bring out the NSR, but to be different it has a single crank V4 - less friction they said - always trying stuff - and the NSRs have been the most powerful V4 500s ever since.

Then they are first with the big bang engine and all the others scramble to follow. Once that's happening Mick Doohan convinces them to switch back to what they are now calling the screamer which once was a conventional V4. Now the 4 strokes are back and what do they do, they build 5 cylinder engines not fours. They keep doing it differently, that's their winning edge - not afraid to try. We have seen handling problems with some of their machines, we have seen them not necessarily have the best riders, but on average Honda keeps comimg out on top because they are different and generally try it first. The others follow - KR Snr says he's going to build a five now and I hope he does it soon. He built his three over a decade after the NS500 was retired. I am sure Honda's real secret is in the time they sit there thinking with the old man on their shoulder before they commit to doing things. They probably start with "What do you think the others will do? Then how can we be different to gain an edge?"

Now maybe Ducati will be the one to take it to Honda - they certainly have in WSB. They are going to race the V4 that is really a double twin - a bit of big bang - but again something different. It may have an edge - we will see next year.

Besides all this reflecting, Rossi is something special though and for once Honda do seem to have put one of their as expected powerful engines this time in a chassis that works well straight up. All credit to the total package really and how much of that is due to Jerry Burgess a very winning team chief.

Regards

Merv.

 

[gt750]

Change the rules!!!

It is time to allow 600c.c. TWO STROKES to race against the 990 c.c. four strokes. It is now unfair to the two strokes, which haven't been redone in at least seven years. They probably quit refining them at least two seasons ago, when they, the Manufactureres, decided to switch to the four strokes. It sucks when there is not enough competition. It is BORING to see Rossi run away always! We need to get rid of W.S.B.!

 

[417]

What it seems to me is that Honda wins most of the time, not because of money necessarily, but because they dare to be different. Its like the old man is still riding on their shoulder there somewhere. Remember their return to GPs with the NR500 - it didn't win but taught them a lot. So they bring out the NS500 triple and it did the trick against the others fours. Then to get more speed they bring out the NSR, but to be different it has a single crank V4 - less friction they said - always trying stuff - and the NSRs have been the most powerful V4 500s ever since. Then they are first with the big bang engine and all the others scramble to follow. Once that's happening Mick Doohan convinces them to switch back to what they are now calling the screamer which once was a conventional V4. Now the 4 strokes are back and what do they do, they build 5 cylinder engines not fours. They keep doing it differently, that's their winning edge - not afraid to try. We have seen handling problems with some of their machines, we have seen them not necessarily have the best riders, but on average Honda keeps comimg out on top because they are different and generally try it first. The others follow - KR Snr says he's going to build a five now and I hope he does it soon. He built his three over a decade after the NS500 was retired. I am sure Honda's real secret is in the time they sit there thinking with the old man on their shoulder before they commit to doing things. They probably start with "What do you think the others will do? Then how can we be different to gain an edge?"



Now maybe Ducati will be the one to take it to Honda - they certainly have in WSB. They are going to race the V4 that is really a double twin - a bit of big bang - but again something different. It may have an edge - we will see next year.



Besides all this reflecting, Rossi is something special though and for once Honda do seem to have put one of their as expected powerful engines this time in a chassis that works well straight up. All credit to the total package really and how much of that is due to Jerry Burgess a very winning team chief.



Can someone tell me why when I posted this message hours earlier it showed OK, I come back now and it had disappeared so I have entered it again. I don't think what I'm saying here is so controversial that it should have been moderated out. What's the story MO?



As everyone knows I am a Honda fan because I love their can do mentality.



Regards

Merv.

 

[417]

Re: Change the rules!!!

Problem is the rules have been changed to outlaw the 2 strokes altogether in the future, no matter what size engine in this class. I think the manufacturers pushed for it and the FIM saw the need for change. You can't buy them for the road anymore so there is no point continuing with that type of engine.

Regards

Merv.

 

[Lincoln]

very well thought out post. I concur with your reasoning. Let me add that Honda can afford to be different BECAUSE of their money. If the V5 experiment was a disaster, rest assured Honda would spring right back with some other configuration.

By the way, i'm fully expecting Honda to come out with a V6 or bigger in the near future. No way does Honda rest on their laurels, especially that the other manufacturers must be dreaming up ways to defeat the RCV's, and Kenny Roberts is going to throw a V5 at them. Honda will always stay one step ahead.



Interesting to note that Barros said Jacques' YZR was faster than his NSR. i thought for sure Barros and Capirossi's NSR were the fastest 2strokes on the field

 

[das]

Er, um, as has been pointed out repeatedly in the past, Kawasaki Heavy Industries dwarfs Honda in total size. Honda just chooses to spend more on motorcycle racing and design/development.



Personally, I'm glad Honda blows so much money on bikes. If they didn't, who would? It also forces other manufacturers to spend money to stay competitive.



As for Honda's dominance of top-level GP racing... well, yeah, it does get a bit old after a while. It was great when KRJR won the championship on the Suzuki, but I guess that just wasn't meant to last.



I think the real issue is that Honda is the only manufacturer who *consistently* makes a competitive bike, so the very best riders, who could go anywhere, choose to go to Honda. Honda continues to win and get good publicity and good R&D from it, so they continue to pour money into it.



It's really a vicious cycle, not unlike the Montreal Canadiens dominance of North American hockey in the 50's and 60's.

 

[jmeyn]

Re: Change the rules!!!

The 2-strokes have had excellent support. They're much faster this year and it's not all tire development. Until they can match the emissions of the 4-strokes they're dead. If direct injection and other developments pan out they may be back in a few years.

 

[jmeyn]

Chicken and Egg... They..

(make it better so it sells better so they can afford to...) Repeat from beginning.

 

[jmeyn]

I'm not sure how it was done, but you were downrated to zero with no moderate-code. I rated you Informative and got you back in the thread. You have a right say what you think, and you say it well.

 

[417]

Thanks.



Merv.

 

[Lex]

Re: Change the rules!!!

jmeyn,

We are well into the area of prediction and personal opinion here but I do not think we will see the two-strokes in MotoGP competition again for a long time, if ever. At the core manufacturers race to sell product, the vast majority of the people buying road going motorcycles prefer four-stoke engines. Therefore the manufacturers want to race four-strokes.

Two-stroke lovers please save your time disagreeing with the "what the people want" sentiment. I know you love two-strokes but history shows the majority do not. Two examples, in the seventies all there of the "two-stroke" Japanese companies converted their products to four-strokes in the US well before the EPA standards took effect. From Yamaha's (I think) 1970 SX650 through Kawasaki's 1972 Z-1 to Suzuki's 1977 GS750 they all changed, the EPA standards didn't effect bikes until 1979. In the early eighties Yamaha proved a two stroke (the RZ 350) could pass the US standards. The bike was cheap, an absolute blast to ride, reliable for a two-stroke and a total failure.

FWIW, I miss the ring-dings a bit myself,

SlowBear

 

[Lincoln]

FWIW....

...who the hell cares if grand prix motorcycles have anything in common with road going motorcycles?! not Rossi or Barros.

i know Michael Schumcher and the gods at Ferrari could give a honk if their vehicle has any resemblance to a car

 

[jmeyn]

IMHO of course

Sure, SlowBear. We can't know. But I want the manufacturers to follow every path to improving their respective breed. GP is only one way to prove concepts and generate interest.

Again, we can't know, but we can hope.

 

[das]

I got a chance to see the race last night... and I'm not so sure I agree with your assessment.



Yes, Rossi did have problems passing Jacques the first time, but he *did* get past. He passed Barros on his first try. No, he couldn't run away from the two-strokes, but they only got past him because he made a mistake.



Given that Rossi had caught right back up to Barros and Jacques (after his error, and just before their crash), and the fact that Rossi then proceeded to go even faster (after their crash), I would not be so quick to say "there was no way Rossi was going to get past Barros and Jacque and make it stick".



I don't think it would have taken Rossi 5 laps to pass Jacques again... he already learned earlier in the race that the front straight was the place to do it. Barros is never easy to pass, but Rossi passed him without much difficulty the first time. And let's face it, the fact is that Rossi typically saves his best for last, turning his fastest laps at the very end of races, after everyone else has slowed because their tires have "gone off", and this race was no exception.



Jacques and/or Barros might have been able to hold Rossi off, but it definitely wasn't a sure thing. To bad for everyone that we'll never know.



-das (unabashedly in complete awe of Rossi's riding abilities)

 

[laverda3c]

Street two strokes are still alive and kicking

Hey hate to burst your small world bubble, but you can buy street legal two strokes if you live in the world outside of north america.

Cheers,

Mark -%)