Tul-aris Scores Again!
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Re: Hey MotoGP, allow the Tul-aris in
Agree on this one.
How about 1000cc two strokes in Moto GP. Yes I know that no one sells them, but racing should pertain to technology as well as marketing. Besides we do have developments in clean two strokes. Orbital, Honda PD bike etc.
Agree on this one.
How about 1000cc two strokes in Moto GP. Yes I know that no one sells them, but racing should pertain to technology as well as marketing. Besides we do have developments in clean two strokes. Orbital, Honda PD bike etc.
Re: 2-strokes not likely
I can't agree on the idea of 1000 cc 2-strokes. Few would likely dissagree that the 2-strokes days are probably numbered thanks to the epa. I would much rather see the development money and track time spent on the 4-strokes. After all that's what we'll see work it's way to the street in one form or another.
I can't agree on the idea of 1000 cc 2-strokes. Few would likely dissagree that the 2-strokes days are probably numbered thanks to the epa. I would much rather see the development money and track time spent on the 4-strokes. After all that's what we'll see work it's way to the street in one form or another.
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211 Posts
Re: 2-strokes not likely
You're right, at this time anyway. The concept of 'clean two-strokes' is out there, it's really just a matter of someone spending some time/money to put it together with a suitable 'marketing spin' to re-sell the public on the technology.
Some outboard motor company (Evinrude?) already makes clean 2-strokes that are right-there with 4-strokes emissions wise. My guess would be they smoke 'em (heh) power-to-weight wise.
The thing is that we -could- have the best of both worlds...gobs of "clean" power that is also very light and very simple. Since a 2-stroke has far fewer moving parts, they are (almost) always lighter and cheaper and simpler to make than a 4-stroke, even with whatever techno-gadgetry has to be added to make them clean (what amounts to fuel-injection). After the techno-bits are figured out, that cost is done... not unlike any new F.I. technology. Thereafter, it's down to refinement and so on... the big 'hit' is the first breakthrough/implementation.
Ever swap in new pistons/rings on your 4-stroke by yourself, in an afternoon? (or less?, you super-mechanics or pros notwithstanding...I'd expect you to do it.)... wish you never had to deal with a rip-off mechanic again (or nearly never again?)? They're not all rip-off artists, but sometimes it seems that way to me I guess... no offense to mechanics out there.
Anyway, learn how to spin just a few wrenches and you can do your own top-end jobs on a 2-stroke. Get a little more into it and you can rebuild the entire motor with hand-tools. Only guy you'll have to see to get the job done is a machinist, and they're good people in my experience. I like building motors though, so I guess that may not be as big a selling point to 'everyman' on the street.
I guess I'm just wishin' and hopin' though. The stinkin' EPA has made its mind up and won't be confused by facts it seems (unless I've missed a press release.... doubtful).
-James
P.S. if it seems like there's always a handful of 2-stroke "defenders of the faith" on this site, I guess there is!...(myself, Lincoln, some others that escape me). I'm beating this drum regardless of whether it's heard, sorry for the repeats on the soap-box to the long-timers!
You're right, at this time anyway. The concept of 'clean two-strokes' is out there, it's really just a matter of someone spending some time/money to put it together with a suitable 'marketing spin' to re-sell the public on the technology.
Some outboard motor company (Evinrude?) already makes clean 2-strokes that are right-there with 4-strokes emissions wise. My guess would be they smoke 'em (heh) power-to-weight wise.
The thing is that we -could- have the best of both worlds...gobs of "clean" power that is also very light and very simple. Since a 2-stroke has far fewer moving parts, they are (almost) always lighter and cheaper and simpler to make than a 4-stroke, even with whatever techno-gadgetry has to be added to make them clean (what amounts to fuel-injection). After the techno-bits are figured out, that cost is done... not unlike any new F.I. technology. Thereafter, it's down to refinement and so on... the big 'hit' is the first breakthrough/implementation.
Ever swap in new pistons/rings on your 4-stroke by yourself, in an afternoon? (or less?, you super-mechanics or pros notwithstanding...I'd expect you to do it.)... wish you never had to deal with a rip-off mechanic again (or nearly never again?)? They're not all rip-off artists, but sometimes it seems that way to me I guess... no offense to mechanics out there.
Anyway, learn how to spin just a few wrenches and you can do your own top-end jobs on a 2-stroke. Get a little more into it and you can rebuild the entire motor with hand-tools. Only guy you'll have to see to get the job done is a machinist, and they're good people in my experience. I like building motors though, so I guess that may not be as big a selling point to 'everyman' on the street.
I guess I'm just wishin' and hopin' though. The stinkin' EPA has made its mind up and won't be confused by facts it seems (unless I've missed a press release.... doubtful).
-James
P.S. if it seems like there's always a handful of 2-stroke "defenders of the faith" on this site, I guess there is!...(myself, Lincoln, some others that escape me). I'm beating this drum regardless of whether it's heard, sorry for the repeats on the soap-box to the long-timers!
Joined
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780 Posts
Re: 2-strokes not likely
A bunch of light, small displacement direct injected 2-strokes are under development as the basis for hybrid powertrains and motor sports engines. They match 4-strokes for emissions at about twice the specific power and they cost much less per kW to produce.
A bunch of light, small displacement direct injected 2-strokes are under development as the basis for hybrid powertrains and motor sports engines. They match 4-strokes for emissions at about twice the specific power and they cost much less per kW to produce.
Joined
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211 Posts
Re: Hey MotoGP, allow the Tul-aris in
Absolutely! Bring on the clean 2-stroke development!! I hear Evinrude (U.S. outboard motor maker) has had this for a while now.
I'm not sure a 1000cc 2-stroke would be rideable in the current state of 500cc tuning, but it'd be neat to see what they'd do.
My guess is that they'd have to throttle back on some of the extra-radical porting, but that'd be just the ticket for mellowing out that hit while boosting low-end (which is what everyone seems to want more of).
I'm sure someone could make it work if given the chance if only b/c they could do it cheaper and thus have $$ left over for several generations of development v.s. shooting it all on one ultra-radical 4-stroke (see Sauber/Petronas... Foggy** scrapped that entire Sauber motor, said it was "way off" (and not just size-wise for WSB, but engineering-wise, FWIW).
-James
** yeah, Foggy's got some crazy 'tude, granted!
Absolutely! Bring on the clean 2-stroke development!! I hear Evinrude (U.S. outboard motor maker) has had this for a while now.
I'm not sure a 1000cc 2-stroke would be rideable in the current state of 500cc tuning, but it'd be neat to see what they'd do.
My guess is that they'd have to throttle back on some of the extra-radical porting, but that'd be just the ticket for mellowing out that hit while boosting low-end (which is what everyone seems to want more of).
I'm sure someone could make it work if given the chance if only b/c they could do it cheaper and thus have $$ left over for several generations of development v.s. shooting it all on one ultra-radical 4-stroke (see Sauber/Petronas... Foggy** scrapped that entire Sauber motor, said it was "way off" (and not just size-wise for WSB, but engineering-wise, FWIW).
-James
** yeah, Foggy's got some crazy 'tude, granted!
Joined
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780 Posts
Re: 2-strokes not likely
Don't knock the EPA too hard. A 2-stroke that meets clean air standards is golden as far as they're concerned. They've put down Diesels and 2-strokes on the basis of current state of the art, but both are improving lately.
Visit New Delhi in India to get an idea of what current Diesel and 2-stroke technology can do to the air in the real world. Air you can't quite chew without getting your teeth greasy.
Don't knock the EPA too hard. A 2-stroke that meets clean air standards is golden as far as they're concerned. They've put down Diesels and 2-strokes on the basis of current state of the art, but both are improving lately.
Visit New Delhi in India to get an idea of what current Diesel and 2-stroke technology can do to the air in the real world. Air you can't quite chew without getting your teeth greasy.
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