US DOT Motorcycle Braking Study
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Interesting data...but its hidden in a powerpoint presentation. Here's an HTML mirror for those who can't view those, for whatever reason.
http://penneybros.org/mirror/
http://penneybros.org/mirror/
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Its a hotly debated topic--I'll take LBS & ABS
In addition to the rollikin' forums here on MO, I've been all over the net looking for info on ABS and LBS. My 1990 BMW K1 has ABS, and when I'm riding the streets of Boston in the rain and have to stop over crappy lane-paint jobs, manhole covers etc. etc. I'm really really glad I have it. In fact, my next/dream bike is the VFR 800 ABS/LBS.
I don't have a car, so I ride in every weather condition except for snow and ice. I know all kinds of folks will flame/rant about how "real riders/experts" don't use ABS, but I say bollocks. In the real world, on the streets where I ride every day, I want all the help I can get in addition to my 10 yrs 90k miles of riding experience. I know on hot dry pavement ABS braking takes slightly longer than w.o it. But ideal conditions are not what I'm worried about.
Check out this comparo as well, it's old but telling.
http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html
peace everyone, and ride well
In addition to the rollikin' forums here on MO, I've been all over the net looking for info on ABS and LBS. My 1990 BMW K1 has ABS, and when I'm riding the streets of Boston in the rain and have to stop over crappy lane-paint jobs, manhole covers etc. etc. I'm really really glad I have it. In fact, my next/dream bike is the VFR 800 ABS/LBS.
I don't have a car, so I ride in every weather condition except for snow and ice. I know all kinds of folks will flame/rant about how "real riders/experts" don't use ABS, but I say bollocks. In the real world, on the streets where I ride every day, I want all the help I can get in addition to my 10 yrs 90k miles of riding experience. I know on hot dry pavement ABS braking takes slightly longer than w.o it. But ideal conditions are not what I'm worried about.
Check out this comparo as well, it's old but telling.
http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html
peace everyone, and ride well
Re: Its a hotly debated topic--I'll take LBS & ABS
Amen, my linked ABS equiped K12RS has saved my butt at least 10 times in a year. Oil, coolant, lane dots and sand spills be damned. Its nice being able to concentrate on traffic instead of traffic and brake modulation. My bike is my car so I to ride year round. Rain soaked CA roads have to be experianced to believe how slick they are. My buddy from CO was happy to return to snow after a few years of CA rain.
My theory as to why is as follows: CA for the most part doesnt get constant rains. Combine that with constant heavy traffic and every rain storm ends up being an oil slick on the slab. I would assume that Seattle in the rain would have better traction due to more frequent rain and less time for oil and muck build up. CO's snowy roads are covered in sand, after it melts the muck is absorbed somewhat by the sand. That and the muck is also dropped onto snow then washed away, similar to the seattle theory. Make sense?
Amen, my linked ABS equiped K12RS has saved my butt at least 10 times in a year. Oil, coolant, lane dots and sand spills be damned. Its nice being able to concentrate on traffic instead of traffic and brake modulation. My bike is my car so I to ride year round. Rain soaked CA roads have to be experianced to believe how slick they are. My buddy from CO was happy to return to snow after a few years of CA rain.
My theory as to why is as follows: CA for the most part doesnt get constant rains. Combine that with constant heavy traffic and every rain storm ends up being an oil slick on the slab. I would assume that Seattle in the rain would have better traction due to more frequent rain and less time for oil and muck build up. CO's snowy roads are covered in sand, after it melts the muck is absorbed somewhat by the sand. That and the muck is also dropped onto snow then washed away, similar to the seattle theory. Make sense?
I wonder why this test doesn't include a standard braking system.It seems that the push is on to legislate only bikes with some type of assisted braking.Not a great idea,as
newer riders will rely only on these systems to get them out of trouble rather than increase their skill level by learning threshold braking in all types of conditions.The testing can by its nature be only subjective anyway, because two individuals will have different results based on their skill level. Rather than spend taxpayers money on tests like these (which is already available from the manufacturers) the
bureaucrats should be looking at ways to educate and test the riding population so they will be better equipped to avoid accidents. Not simply apply maximum braking force and hope
for the best. We have more than just brakes at our disposal to avoid accidents. But your best tool is the skills you have learned through experience and the knowledge that is passed on through riders schools etc.
newer riders will rely only on these systems to get them out of trouble rather than increase their skill level by learning threshold braking in all types of conditions.The testing can by its nature be only subjective anyway, because two individuals will have different results based on their skill level. Rather than spend taxpayers money on tests like these (which is already available from the manufacturers) the
bureaucrats should be looking at ways to educate and test the riding population so they will be better equipped to avoid accidents. Not simply apply maximum braking force and hope
for the best. We have more than just brakes at our disposal to avoid accidents. But your best tool is the skills you have learned through experience and the knowledge that is passed on through riders schools etc.
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17,458 Posts
Watch for mandated ABS on all motorcycles and scooters soon.
Remember the Claybrook tears under Carter? I'd rather the govt completely forgot about us.
Whenever the govt gets involved expect your wallet to be squeezed with a result of little if any improvement of the situation.
Remember the Claybrook tears under Carter? I'd rather the govt completely forgot about us.
Whenever the govt gets involved expect your wallet to be squeezed with a result of little if any improvement of the situation.
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22 Posts
More complete data would have been appreciated. Give us actual stopping distances, not just one bike stopped sooner than the other. Compare apples to apples. Stating that one model of bike stops in a shorter distance than another, discounts too many other factors. At least they mentioned that "performance" tires did yield better results.
There were some very interesting tidbits in the article...
Motorcycle Crashes 1990-1999
Over-40 age group accounted for 39% of fatalities in single vehicle crashes in 1999, up from 14% in 1990
42% of all age group fatalities involved intoxicated riders
Bikes with engine displacement above 1000 cc were involved in 33% of fatalities in 1999, up from 22% in 1990
Single vehicle crashes account for about 45% of all motorcycle fatalities
I added up these stats and have written a sales slogan for Harley Davidson. "You meet the stupidest drunks on a Harley."
I'm not, The Highwayman!
There were some very interesting tidbits in the article...
Motorcycle Crashes 1990-1999
Over-40 age group accounted for 39% of fatalities in single vehicle crashes in 1999, up from 14% in 1990
42% of all age group fatalities involved intoxicated riders
Bikes with engine displacement above 1000 cc were involved in 33% of fatalities in 1999, up from 22% in 1990
Single vehicle crashes account for about 45% of all motorcycle fatalities
I added up these stats and have written a sales slogan for Harley Davidson. "You meet the stupidest drunks on a Harley."
I'm not, The Highwayman!
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Like Yeah_right says, this study doesn't have a lot of credibility. There are too many variables in these tests with only subjective data presented.
There are certainly a lot more differences than just braking systems between these bikes. And how similiar are the calipers and rotors between these bikes anyway? Maybe I missed something (admittedly, I didn't read the article that closely), but shouldn't one bike have been tested with only manual, then ABS, LBS, and finally both ABS and LBS together? And, uh... I thought it was pretty well established how effective single brake braking was... Why is that included in the test?
On a side note, does anyone know if bikes with LBS have balance controllers installed? Is it an aftermarket option?
Kinji
There are certainly a lot more differences than just braking systems between these bikes. And how similiar are the calipers and rotors between these bikes anyway? Maybe I missed something (admittedly, I didn't read the article that closely), but shouldn't one bike have been tested with only manual, then ABS, LBS, and finally both ABS and LBS together? And, uh... I thought it was pretty well established how effective single brake braking was... Why is that included in the test?
On a side note, does anyone know if bikes with LBS have balance controllers installed? Is it an aftermarket option?
Kinji
If I recall when Claybrook was in charge one conclusion reached was that extended front ends were safer because the extra length resulted in reduced speed at impact of rider. EEYIKES!
Although this presentation seems to be prepared by someone cutting their teeth with collecting and presenting data who knows what a career minded bureaucrat might be able to concoct.
Although this presentation seems to be prepared by someone cutting their teeth with collecting and presenting data who knows what a career minded bureaucrat might be able to concoct.
Motorcycling diseases
Took a few quotes from the article and will match those up with well know motorcycling diseases:
Steps rider took to avoid crash:
" -22% of motorcycle fatalities were related to braking or steering maneuvers"
This is "Idontbelongonamotorcycleitis"
Caused by no control over the motorcycle beyond ability to twist the throttle. Symptoms leading to this disease are usually large amounts of brown material in the pants followed by a loud scream.
"Fatalities related to braking has fluctuated slightly between 1990 and 1999 but remains at 13%"
This is "Leadfoot Syndrome" Crash accompanied by heavy rear brake action with no front brake actuation. Syndrome usually has following symptoms:Handlebar grips usually have finger indentations from a 1000 psi squeeze before impact, accompanied by teeth mashed 1/4 inch shorter by clenching jaws.
"30% of fatalities were attributed to no maneuver taken to avoid crash"
"This is "Sphincter Pucker Syndrome". Accompanied by boiled egg eyeballs, seat foam found between buttocks, and a hearty "Oh Sheeeeyat" before impact.
-One-half of the motorcycle fatalities occurred when the vehicle was negotiating a curve
This one is "Brainfaart Affliction" Early symptoms begin with going too fast, turning in too early, and leaning too little. Advanced symptoms start with braking unnecessarily, with sudden standing up of the motorcycle. Could be accompanied by one or all of the above diseases to allow a sudden crash or complete exit from the roadway.
In short, please check your braking and turning skills to detect any or all of the above motorcycling diseases. If any are present I suggest you stay off the road until you can actually brake, turn, and control your motorcycle. You will do us and yourself a favor.
Took a few quotes from the article and will match those up with well know motorcycling diseases:
Steps rider took to avoid crash:
" -22% of motorcycle fatalities were related to braking or steering maneuvers"
This is "Idontbelongonamotorcycleitis"
Caused by no control over the motorcycle beyond ability to twist the throttle. Symptoms leading to this disease are usually large amounts of brown material in the pants followed by a loud scream.
"Fatalities related to braking has fluctuated slightly between 1990 and 1999 but remains at 13%"
This is "Leadfoot Syndrome" Crash accompanied by heavy rear brake action with no front brake actuation. Syndrome usually has following symptoms:Handlebar grips usually have finger indentations from a 1000 psi squeeze before impact, accompanied by teeth mashed 1/4 inch shorter by clenching jaws.
"30% of fatalities were attributed to no maneuver taken to avoid crash"
"This is "Sphincter Pucker Syndrome". Accompanied by boiled egg eyeballs, seat foam found between buttocks, and a hearty "Oh Sheeeeyat" before impact.
-One-half of the motorcycle fatalities occurred when the vehicle was negotiating a curve
This one is "Brainfaart Affliction" Early symptoms begin with going too fast, turning in too early, and leaning too little. Advanced symptoms start with braking unnecessarily, with sudden standing up of the motorcycle. Could be accompanied by one or all of the above diseases to allow a sudden crash or complete exit from the roadway.
In short, please check your braking and turning skills to detect any or all of the above motorcycling diseases. If any are present I suggest you stay off the road until you can actually brake, turn, and control your motorcycle. You will do us and yourself a favor.
Re: Its a hotly debated topic--I'll take LBS & ABS
I have been riding sportbikes for 20 years,and can stop real quick.But in a panic situation when I am surprized I usually lock my front brake temporarilly before releasing enough for it to really grab and stop me.I think ABS is better for real life riding on the street.
I have been riding sportbikes for 20 years,and can stop real quick.But in a panic situation when I am surprized I usually lock my front brake temporarilly before releasing enough for it to really grab and stop me.I think ABS is better for real life riding on the street.
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Ummm, by the stats you quoted 2/3 of these fatalities involve bikes under 1000cc. Looks like the squids account for about 50% of the fatalities though they only comprise about 20% of the riders.
That wouldn't surprise me at all having had the misfortune to drive to the Rock Store on Sunday morning a couple of times. Going 100+ around blind curves on a public road isn't exactly responsible riding.
That wouldn't surprise me at all having had the misfortune to drive to the Rock Store on Sunday morning a couple of times. Going 100+ around blind curves on a public road isn't exactly responsible riding.
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441 Posts
Well, sometimes, anyway... good post.
Brit Mag Study
There was a Brit bike magazine study on this same subject, only more in depth. I don't remember the details, since I just read it in the bookstore, but I know it involved Honda motorcycles of all types, utilizing just about every type of braking system, LBS, ABS, and no assist, all on wet tarmac. They used a CBR600, a Valkyrie (maybe a VTX or a Shadow), an Interceptor, and an X-11,maybe others. Like I said, it was about six months ago, and I don't even remember what magazine it was in - probably Ride, they're generally the most useful.
If anyone remembers the details of this test, you could fill my (substantial) gaps.
There was a Brit bike magazine study on this same subject, only more in depth. I don't remember the details, since I just read it in the bookstore, but I know it involved Honda motorcycles of all types, utilizing just about every type of braking system, LBS, ABS, and no assist, all on wet tarmac. They used a CBR600, a Valkyrie (maybe a VTX or a Shadow), an Interceptor, and an X-11,maybe others. Like I said, it was about six months ago, and I don't even remember what magazine it was in - probably Ride, they're generally the most useful.
If anyone remembers the details of this test, you could fill my (substantial) gaps.
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>had the misfortune to drive to the Rock Store on Sunday morning a couple of times.<
Anyone who goes to the rock store is misfortunate. I rode my bike there and while going around a turn at a sane 45mph, I almost collided head-on with Jay Leno's chin, which was hanging over the centerline.
Anyone who goes to the rock store is misfortunate. I rode my bike there and while going around a turn at a sane 45mph, I almost collided head-on with Jay Leno's chin, which was hanging over the centerline.
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