Vulcan 2000 Teaser
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Re: V-rod Vanquishes Vulcan in Value Validation
New Harleys are actually selling for MSRP up here for the first time in 15yrs. All those Vasaline tax Victims might find their resale Value diminished.
Imagine having to buy a motorcycle just to ride it instead of as an inVestment item.
New Harleys are actually selling for MSRP up here for the first time in 15yrs. All those Vasaline tax Victims might find their resale Value diminished.
Imagine having to buy a motorcycle just to ride it instead of as an inVestment item.
In Canada...
V2K $18 999.00 MSRP
V-Rod $25 349.00 MSRP (solid paint w/no accessories)
Considering MSRP alone the Harley is a third again as much...
THis doesn't take into account the typical HD dealer gouging.... I looked at some V-Rods at H-D of Calgary this summer which were listed at 32k plus tax. And the average Kawasaki dealer here will probably let you "jew them down" a bit.
Say you negotiate a price of 18500 for the Kawi, plus 200 for assembly. Total is $20009.00 with 7% sales tax.
At HD of Calgary you pay 32k plus 200 for assembly (?) plus tax the total is $34454.00.
(34454-20009) / 20009 = .072
Now you're paying a 72% premium for the V-Rod. Cool bike, but still worth it?
OK "twice as much" was out to lunch but if you were to actually go and buy them you'd still pay a pretty substantial premium for the Harley.
And that doesn't take into consideration the cost for the required "Authentic Screaming Eagle H-D Merchandise Tough Guy Biker Costume" (tm) **tattoos and goatee sold separately**
V2K $18 999.00 MSRP
V-Rod $25 349.00 MSRP (solid paint w/no accessories)
Considering MSRP alone the Harley is a third again as much...
THis doesn't take into account the typical HD dealer gouging.... I looked at some V-Rods at H-D of Calgary this summer which were listed at 32k plus tax. And the average Kawasaki dealer here will probably let you "jew them down" a bit.
Say you negotiate a price of 18500 for the Kawi, plus 200 for assembly. Total is $20009.00 with 7% sales tax.
At HD of Calgary you pay 32k plus 200 for assembly (?) plus tax the total is $34454.00.
(34454-20009) / 20009 = .072
Now you're paying a 72% premium for the V-Rod. Cool bike, but still worth it?
OK "twice as much" was out to lunch but if you were to actually go and buy them you'd still pay a pretty substantial premium for the Harley.
And that doesn't take into consideration the cost for the required "Authentic Screaming Eagle H-D Merchandise Tough Guy Biker Costume" (tm) **tattoos and goatee sold separately**
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1,521 Posts
If V-Rod is the direction that the cruisers will eventually head, well, nobody is heading that way.
The huddled masses don't want a torque-challenged high RPM "cruiser".
- cruiz-euro
The huddled masses don't want a torque-challenged high RPM "cruiser".
- cruiz-euro
Kawasaki and other manufacturers who are trying to topple the v-twin market are missing the mark. They try to do so with bigger is better, etc., etc. However, Harley is uniquely American and has that market hands down in ways far beyond simply manufacturing a v-twin...it's an icon.
No matter what is put out there in the v-twin segment it is doubtful that it will ever gain the market share they so desire. Triumph, with their own interpretation of large cruiser is the only one with any credence of cutting into the that market share because they got smart and chose to put out an inline three. No matter how good they are, how much bigger they are, no matter what, the Japanese will never get the v-twin market share they so desire. Harley is still Harley. Yes, they are those H-D dealers that gouge and I am against that altogether, but what Harley has NO other manufacturer has in the v-twin world.
No matter what is put out there in the v-twin segment it is doubtful that it will ever gain the market share they so desire. Triumph, with their own interpretation of large cruiser is the only one with any credence of cutting into the that market share because they got smart and chose to put out an inline three. No matter how good they are, how much bigger they are, no matter what, the Japanese will never get the v-twin market share they so desire. Harley is still Harley. Yes, they are those H-D dealers that gouge and I am against that altogether, but what Harley has NO other manufacturer has in the v-twin world.
"Less intelligent" is a bit harsh: the fact is that many people don't really understand the relationship between torque and horsepower, and that magazines quite often confuse the issue.
The concepts aren't really that hard, and the math involved is pretty simple.
A quick calculation based on your post:
Assume we want to spin a rear wheel at 1000 rpm. What's the torque applied to that wheel for these two engines? ( Assuming full throttle, and that we gear for the torque peak. )
Geared down to 1000 rpm, the Vulcan will have 366 lbft of torque at the rear.
( 3000/1000 = 3 ; 3*122 = 366 )
Geared down to 1000 rpm, the FZ1 will have ~548 lbft of torque at the rear.
It's not a complete example by any means, but it does illustrate the point...
-- Michael
The concepts aren't really that hard, and the math involved is pretty simple.
A quick calculation based on your post:
Assume we want to spin a rear wheel at 1000 rpm. What's the torque applied to that wheel for these two engines? ( Assuming full throttle, and that we gear for the torque peak. )
Geared down to 1000 rpm, the Vulcan will have 366 lbft of torque at the rear.
( 3000/1000 = 3 ; 3*122 = 366 )
Geared down to 1000 rpm, the FZ1 will have ~548 lbft of torque at the rear.
It's not a complete example by any means, but it does illustrate the point...
-- Michael
Seems like the Kawi is sort of an exercise in futility. Now that it's priced above an entry-level Dyna, it's really aimed at people who truly want the biggest, rather than those who simply can't afford a Harley (the traditional metric cruiser target market). But if you really want the biggest, why piddle around with this thing when you could get a Rocket III for under 16 grand, which would utterly humiliate this pig, and underweighs it by over a hundred pounds? Kawi may have screwed the pooch on this one.
Re: Is Motorcycle Online going to change its name to Cruiser Online?
ebass said: Actually, it's no secret that the majority of motorcycles purchased in the USA are cruisers. I would expect you to know that!
And the beer with the largest percentage of US market share is Bud Light (2001, followed by Bud, Coors Light, and Miller Lite).
So, Americans like light, crisp, tasteless beer that doesn't fill you up, but for motorcycles they like big, fat, slow, ponderous, loud, horribly braking hippos adorned with cupholders, ash trays, and frilly leather dingleberries.
Interesting.
ebass said: Actually, it's no secret that the majority of motorcycles purchased in the USA are cruisers. I would expect you to know that!
And the beer with the largest percentage of US market share is Bud Light (2001, followed by Bud, Coors Light, and Miller Lite).
So, Americans like light, crisp, tasteless beer that doesn't fill you up, but for motorcycles they like big, fat, slow, ponderous, loud, horribly braking hippos adorned with cupholders, ash trays, and frilly leather dingleberries.
Interesting.
which one?
I do have an inkling to do such a thing... I can't decide. The R1 is pure sex and will probably have more power and less weight than the honda.... but on the other hand I think the Honda might be a more "forgiving" bike to its rider, what with that damper, the forward position, and the super-long swingarm. I'm also looking at a used rc-51 though.
I do have an inkling to do such a thing... I can't decide. The R1 is pure sex and will probably have more power and less weight than the honda.... but on the other hand I think the Honda might be a more "forgiving" bike to its rider, what with that damper, the forward position, and the super-long swingarm. I'm also looking at a used rc-51 though.
Re: Is Motorcycle Online going to change its name to Cruiser Online?
Objectively speaking, there is more happening in cruiser world today than in any bike segment ever. Its certainly not tepid stuff like new brembos and +5% power.
Like what? Standing around, drinking beer, ogling your buddy's toothless hag, and moaning about the 50 miles you were forced to ride to get to the Black T-Shirt Gang Hideout? Shucks, anything over 50 and you'd probably want to trailer that swine, right?
Just what kind of "happening" are you talking about? I mean besides loading down your lop-eared mule with 500 pounds of chrome and other stupidity?
I wonder what you'd do if all of your jeans and black H-D t-shirts were dirty on Saturday afternoon... Would you wait and wash them and risk losing your usual parking spot, or would you chance being laughed at for being out of uniform?
Objectively speaking, there is more happening in cruiser world today than in any bike segment ever. Its certainly not tepid stuff like new brembos and +5% power.
Like what? Standing around, drinking beer, ogling your buddy's toothless hag, and moaning about the 50 miles you were forced to ride to get to the Black T-Shirt Gang Hideout? Shucks, anything over 50 and you'd probably want to trailer that swine, right?
Just what kind of "happening" are you talking about? I mean besides loading down your lop-eared mule with 500 pounds of chrome and other stupidity?
I wonder what you'd do if all of your jeans and black H-D t-shirts were dirty on Saturday afternoon... Would you wait and wash them and risk losing your usual parking spot, or would you chance being laughed at for being out of uniform?
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17,458 Posts
But when you go out and actually test the bikes often you find that the real world result doesn't fit the calculated result.
For example my old GSX1100G dynos at only 90+ Rwhp @ 7500 and 75 ft-lbs at 4750. It gives a best SS 1/4 @ 11.38 sec @122 mph. It is a horrible slug compared to the recent years' models of 600s, much less literbike race replicas. Even my old 700 Magna gets down the road faster than many much newer bikes.
Then why have I yet to lose a stoplight grand prix to a 600 and seldom to a literbike? Probably experience and the comparatively wide powerband. There's far more to it than calculations. Few riders know the finer points of good launches.
That's why I say to go out and ride. You may love the bike that all the "experts" put down.
For example my old GSX1100G dynos at only 90+ Rwhp @ 7500 and 75 ft-lbs at 4750. It gives a best SS 1/4 @ 11.38 sec @122 mph. It is a horrible slug compared to the recent years' models of 600s, much less literbike race replicas. Even my old 700 Magna gets down the road faster than many much newer bikes.
Then why have I yet to lose a stoplight grand prix to a 600 and seldom to a literbike? Probably experience and the comparatively wide powerband. There's far more to it than calculations. Few riders know the finer points of good launches.
That's why I say to go out and ride. You may love the bike that all the "experts" put down.
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