in the late 60"s, Harley built an inline, 4 cylinder DOHC engine. It was installed in a sporster frame and the engine looked very similar to an MV Augusta. As usual, the company did not think it would sell & was scrapped.In 1968 Honda proved them wrong & the downfall of the motor company began
Water-Cooled Harley Discussion
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Knock off the Harley-Bashing, folks. I've got news for you: THEY RIDE TOO! It's true that SOME of them are about what other people choose to ride, but so are some of the people that ride EVERY OTHER kind of bike. You know it's true. do we really need to divide us (bikers) into "Us" and "Them"? Aren't we all bikers, Riders, Motorcyclists, whatever your preferred terminology? Do you really want to stoop to that level? If some Harley riders are jerks about it, so what? If you stoop to their level, you're just admitting that you are no better than that low-life who won't wave back. 'Nuff said.
Now, on to the actual subject:
The sad truth is that EVERYTHING is market driven in a free enterprise, unless the government steps in. Which is what has happened. Harley Davidson keeps selling their product because their product is still selling. It has NOTHING to do with whether or not water cooling is better, and EVERYTHING to do with what their customers want. If their customers want a loping, syncopated idle, they leave in the single-pin crank. If their customers want a VERY beautiful machine, but don't care all that much about weight and handling, guess what? They get it. Now, on to the exception: Ever increasing smog laws make it harder and harder to make a decent engine with air-cooling... And the customers lose what they want. Is this a bad thing? No. People have had a good time complaining about every single technological innovation that has ever applied to any sort of motorsport, but they've been wrong. Fuel injection didn't kill muscle cars, it revived them. Electronic ignition? When was the last time you complained because you didn't have to change the points?
How 'bout this: We used to think it was GOOD when a car went 100,000 miles without a rebuild. Now we EXPECT it. My dad has 80,000 miles on his Concours, and it still runs strong. I put 600 miles a WEEK on my CBR 1000F, commuting to work... I couldn't have done that 20 years ago. So... Leave them alone. They'll change when they need to, and not a moment before. Wave. Have fun on your bike, whatever you ride. I may not choose the same bike (and I know lots of you wouldn't choose MY bike), but as long as YOU'RE happy with your bike, I'm happy with your bike.
Keep the shiny side up,
Don
Now, on to the actual subject:
The sad truth is that EVERYTHING is market driven in a free enterprise, unless the government steps in. Which is what has happened. Harley Davidson keeps selling their product because their product is still selling. It has NOTHING to do with whether or not water cooling is better, and EVERYTHING to do with what their customers want. If their customers want a loping, syncopated idle, they leave in the single-pin crank. If their customers want a VERY beautiful machine, but don't care all that much about weight and handling, guess what? They get it. Now, on to the exception: Ever increasing smog laws make it harder and harder to make a decent engine with air-cooling... And the customers lose what they want. Is this a bad thing? No. People have had a good time complaining about every single technological innovation that has ever applied to any sort of motorsport, but they've been wrong. Fuel injection didn't kill muscle cars, it revived them. Electronic ignition? When was the last time you complained because you didn't have to change the points?
How 'bout this: We used to think it was GOOD when a car went 100,000 miles without a rebuild. Now we EXPECT it. My dad has 80,000 miles on his Concours, and it still runs strong. I put 600 miles a WEEK on my CBR 1000F, commuting to work... I couldn't have done that 20 years ago. So... Leave them alone. They'll change when they need to, and not a moment before. Wave. Have fun on your bike, whatever you ride. I may not choose the same bike (and I know lots of you wouldn't choose MY bike), but as long as YOU'RE happy with your bike, I'm happy with your bike.
Keep the shiny side up,
Don
There's at least some truth to that...
Don't know about the cast iron replacement spokes, but I was told that Honda's first venture was piston rings. Soichiro Honda didn't know jack about metallurgy, and the samples he first sent to Toyota were horrible. When Toyota rejected them, Honda did some research and made better piston rings, which were still not good enough for Toyota. After a few more iterations, Honda eventually made acceptable piston rings and supplied Toyota with them until his factory was burned to the ground along with a large amount of the rest of Japan in WWII.
Don't know about the cast iron replacement spokes, but I was told that Honda's first venture was piston rings. Soichiro Honda didn't know jack about metallurgy, and the samples he first sent to Toyota were horrible. When Toyota rejected them, Honda did some research and made better piston rings, which were still not good enough for Toyota. After a few more iterations, Honda eventually made acceptable piston rings and supplied Toyota with them until his factory was burned to the ground along with a large amount of the rest of Japan in WWII.
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15 Posts
I think he meant in a head on wreck.
No I don't want to see the Superbike series won by a Harley!!! Harley has survived my making a status symbol name, not by making a quality product. If Harley wants to impress me or anyone with any sense, start building bikes that last longer than the payments!
Come on guys, don't be like this. We're Americans, and should be proud of our own products. I admit that HD hasn't been the best bike maker out there, but if they're willing to try, lets support them.
By the way, most of HD riders I've ran into in CA are very educated professional people. Maybe you've seen too much magazine pictures. I ride a R1 myself, and I welcome all new changes towards higher technology.
By the way, most of HD riders I've ran into in CA are very educated professional people. Maybe you've seen too much magazine pictures. I ride a R1 myself, and I welcome all new changes towards higher technology.
Re: Correction - the V-45/65 motor....
Hmmm...if I remember correctly, the Honda V-Fours had a reputation for breaking down quite often when they first came out. the second-generation VFR750 and the current Interceptor have a quite good rep for reliability although Honda V-4s have always been a pain in the ass to repair or maintain due to engine complexity...
Nah, engine complexity and H-D don't sound right, although the frequent breakdowns sound very AMF... Then again, if the Nova project has been on & off since the start... maybe a Porsche engineer defected to Honda & took some plans with him?
Hmmm...if I remember correctly, the Honda V-Fours had a reputation for breaking down quite often when they first came out. the second-generation VFR750 and the current Interceptor have a quite good rep for reliability although Honda V-4s have always been a pain in the ass to repair or maintain due to engine complexity...
Nah, engine complexity and H-D don't sound right, although the frequent breakdowns sound very AMF... Then again, if the Nova project has been on & off since the start... maybe a Porsche engineer defected to Honda & took some plans with him?
It's about damn time Harley decided to come into this millenium. But hey, if there are enought morons out there to keep buying Harleys because of the 'style' and noise, so be it. I guess they've made up in marketing and tradition what they've missed in technology. They're still the #1 motorcycle in this country. (United States)
I'm just letting it be known that it's not because they're the best, it's because there are a lot of stupid people out there who are more concerned with their image than riding a good bike.
It will be a cold day in hell when Harley will give any rice-burner a run for their money. Why do you think they're enlising Porsche's help? It's because they haven't even considered technology in years.
I'm just letting it be known that it's not because they're the best, it's because there are a lot of stupid people out there who are more concerned with their image than riding a good bike.
It will be a cold day in hell when Harley will give any rice-burner a run for their money. Why do you think they're enlising Porsche's help? It's because they haven't even considered technology in years.
Re: Inexperience
Well, if H-D wants to make a big splash in the V-twin sportbike market, then what they have to do is build a sportbike and WIN! Or at least make a credible showing.
Who here had ever heard of Aprilia before Max Biaggi won the 250 GP championship on their bike in the mid '90s? I am certain that H-D would have access to more money than today's equivalent of what Aprilia had then. As for enthusiasm, I don't think there's any lack of that. Engineering ability? Team ability? Talent? These may be problems, especially after the VR1000 debacle. But these can be found.
H-D can build a winning Superbike, especially if it has a competetive liquid cooled engine. All it needs is commitment to the task, which it won't have unless it believes there will be either a short-term profit or a long-term benefit for the company.
Well, if H-D wants to make a big splash in the V-twin sportbike market, then what they have to do is build a sportbike and WIN! Or at least make a credible showing.
Who here had ever heard of Aprilia before Max Biaggi won the 250 GP championship on their bike in the mid '90s? I am certain that H-D would have access to more money than today's equivalent of what Aprilia had then. As for enthusiasm, I don't think there's any lack of that. Engineering ability? Team ability? Talent? These may be problems, especially after the VR1000 debacle. But these can be found.
H-D can build a winning Superbike, especially if it has a competetive liquid cooled engine. All it needs is commitment to the task, which it won't have unless it believes there will be either a short-term profit or a long-term benefit for the company.
Re: THIS IS THE CAUSE FOR THE FLAMING POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Would that be ANOTHER case of where they couldn't get it right, even if they had the help of on of the best engine builders (Roush) in the world?
Yeah, we all know Russel couldn't win any of those races cuz he's over the hill and somebody sucker punched him. Oh well, time will tell. HD's got plenty of that!
Would that be ANOTHER case of where they couldn't get it right, even if they had the help of on of the best engine builders (Roush) in the world?
Yeah, we all know Russel couldn't win any of those races cuz he's over the hill and somebody sucker punched him. Oh well, time will tell. HD's got plenty of that!
Looks Awful Familiar
Seems like this design lends credence to the concept that the Germans are still a little sore for spoiling their fun back in the 40's. I thought the bike looked familiar in the first few shots but the last one, a full side view where it is obvious the rider is looking for some major muscle to hold the beast up, confirms my suspicion. I have seen this bike before, and here it is. http://www.roadog.com/ Go Harley!
Seems like this design lends credence to the concept that the Germans are still a little sore for spoiling their fun back in the 40's. I thought the bike looked familiar in the first few shots but the last one, a full side view where it is obvious the rider is looking for some major muscle to hold the beast up, confirms my suspicion. I have seen this bike before, and here it is. http://www.roadog.com/ Go Harley!
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154 Posts
Re: Japs - If You Can
Actually, I believe the Nova engine was a V4.
Actually, I believe the Nova engine was a V4.
Joined
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154 Posts
Then the Harley faithful would feel right at home shifting it! The Harleys I've ridden had lousy shifting. I mentioned BMY mostly because of the VEHICLE dynamics. Suspension, cg, etc. It'll be interesting whatever the case. Actually, Aprillia might have a better choice. Large-displacement V-twin, great chassis.
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214 Posts
Re: Enough flames, let
I think the bike is exceedingly odd-looking. It looks like it has very little suspension travel, especially up front. It also looks like it has too much rake. If the prototype is anything like the final production bike, it will hate corners and bumps.
I think the bike is exceedingly odd-looking. It looks like it has very little suspension travel, especially up front. It also looks like it has too much rake. If the prototype is anything like the final production bike, it will hate corners and bumps.
Re: So we have a sociology major here...
"We do it because we simply enjoy the beauty and relaxation of the open road rather than for any reasons of self-image or social status. There's always golf for that
"
So why do so many cruiser riders find it necessary to dress in nearly identical fashion, ie the black leather "bad-a$$ biker dude" look? I stopped dressing up to look like something I'm not when I stopped playing coyboys and indians. I'd only dress up like a Hell's Angel if I was going to a custume party, which is where a lot of cruiser riders look like they're heading. I ride with a diverse group on a variety of different bikes, and their riding gear is biased towards functional, not fashionable. Textile jackets and pants, assorted leathers, boots and gloves of all varieties. The look just isn't all that important. We ride to ride, not to be seen (mostly, everyone likes showing off occasionally).
I'm not just picking on cruiser riders, though. All the race-replica guys wearing one-piece racing suits also look goofy to me. Especially in white - those really look like fairy suits. Sure, they may be functional, but only if you don't plan to get off your bike and do anything else. Knee sliders for street riding? If you go around dragging your knee on the street, you're heading for a fall and a world of hurt, eventually.
"We do it because we simply enjoy the beauty and relaxation of the open road rather than for any reasons of self-image or social status. There's always golf for that
"So why do so many cruiser riders find it necessary to dress in nearly identical fashion, ie the black leather "bad-a$$ biker dude" look? I stopped dressing up to look like something I'm not when I stopped playing coyboys and indians. I'd only dress up like a Hell's Angel if I was going to a custume party, which is where a lot of cruiser riders look like they're heading. I ride with a diverse group on a variety of different bikes, and their riding gear is biased towards functional, not fashionable. Textile jackets and pants, assorted leathers, boots and gloves of all varieties. The look just isn't all that important. We ride to ride, not to be seen (mostly, everyone likes showing off occasionally).
I'm not just picking on cruiser riders, though. All the race-replica guys wearing one-piece racing suits also look goofy to me. Especially in white - those really look like fairy suits. Sure, they may be functional, but only if you don't plan to get off your bike and do anything else. Knee sliders for street riding? If you go around dragging your knee on the street, you're heading for a fall and a world of hurt, eventually.
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