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I guess you missed the BIG picture, so,,,I'll put it into very simple words and sentences.



ORTEGA HIGHWAY...What part of that says, Ortega Internation Speedway, Ortega MotorSports Complex...Hmmm...Let's see,,,Posted SPEED LIMIT, 25 mph, 45 mph, 55 mph. DOUBLE YELLOW PAINTED lines dividing the road for traffic. DOUBLE FINE ZONE since people like you think rules don't apply to you and you think it's your RIGHT to act a fool. You see, the double fine zone was put there because people think, "It's not going to happen to me, I'm to good..." They're too STUPID to fear death...So hit'em where it counts...$$$



Myself, I love going fast, I ride both on and off road, I've raced both on and off road, go-carts (125cc shifter 100+mph), I am a licensed pilot. But there's a time and a place and people like you don't understand it. And it wouldn't be so bad, but it's usually someone else who's got to clean up the mess. And it's not just Ortega Highway, It's Mulholland Dr., It's I-15 Between Barstow and Vegas, Highway 18 in Big Bear, Highway 138 "Death Trap Highway Between Victorville and Palmdale, It's a a road in Apple Valley where 2 Sport Bikers raced and hit a 16 year old girl in Volkswagon at over 100 mph cutting it in half and ejecting her almost 100 yards down the street, killing her and the idiot who hit her instantly.



Do you tell her parents,,,A few bad apples...



Maybe you should get the list of major accidents and fatalities for Ortega Highway.



I don't believe in GUN CONTROL. My attitude is, GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE. But I'd be willing to give up my guns anyday of the week if it meant another kid wouldn't be killed by a gun. Are you willing to give up something that IS NOT INTENDED FOR THE USE IT'S BEING USED FOR ( Ortega Highway is road for transportation not Sport bikers or racer personal use) IN ORDER TO SAVE ONE LIFE??? I haven't been back to Ortega high way since I seen the passanger of a COOL R-6 owner go down and take her with him, He was alright, He had a Leather Jacket, Alpline Stars Gloves and an Arai Helmet. She had an Generic $90 helmet on, Nylon jacket, jeans and Keds tennis shoes, no gloves...Get the picture.



How many constitutes, A FEW BAD APPLES. Be responsible, check out the numbers yourself.
 

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I'm sure that officer got up that morning, went to the bathroom and looked in the mirror and asked himself,,,Gee, I wonder what it is I can do today to get the S--T kicked out of me for absolutely no reason...Hmmm...



With your mentallity, don't complain if you and your wife are just walking in front of your house and someone walks up and puts a couple of rounds in your wife. Because hey, I wonder what she did to initiate this..



Just goes to show you that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to ride a bike...or be a part of the human race

 

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Dude... two things. First of all... relax. Take a couple slow deep breaths and re-read my post.



I didn't say anything about it being anybody's right to injure or unreasonably endanger anyone else. I didn't say anything about not imposing or extracting fines or other penalties for such behavior. If you're riding your bike in such a way that you injure or unreasonably endanger someone, you should be penalized. That's what the law and law enforcement is for. I have no problem with that.



But law enforcement is not what you suggested. You suggested banning all motorcycles from that road. And that's wrong.



Second point... no I wouldn't give up my guns even if it meant one less kid would be killed. I know, that sounds callous at first blush, but you have to realize that almost every man-made item/activity kills people. Vehicles, sports, plastic bags, swimming pools, electricity, almost every job, toaster ovens, guns, skiing, fire... etc, ad naseum. I'm simply not willing to give up everything, (and force everyone to do so also) spending my life sitting still doing nothing for fear that someone else doing a similar activity or using a similar product might die.



I'm certainly not suggesting that unreasonably dangerous products are ok, I'm saying that just become some item or activity kills someone (or even many, many someones) is no reason to ban others from using or doing it.



You can make arguements about where the line is between reasonably and unreasonably dangerous, but you're not going to convince me that motorcycling on any of those roads that you mentioned is unreasonably dangerous. Sorry.

 

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Read what? Where did the article say all bikes were being harassed? It said "We've[MO] received a number of e-mails from Southern California riders who mentioned getting pulled over and questioned repeatedly by CHP officers on Ortega Highway .."

It never said all bikers, nor did it say harassed. This might have been the opinion of the people sending emails, or your interpretation. You think cruisers and Gold Wings were getting pulled over? I doubt it. It sounds to me like they had a vague description "sportbike, croctch-rocket, Ninja racer" so they were pulling over all sport bikes.

I think as far as the police are concerned (and the law itself) this was the reason, a partial description fit, giving them probable cause to check ALL sportbikes.

I can understand how people feel threatened, and think this is harrassment. But the police have a legitimate reason for this. What do you think happened. AM Roll Call at CHP, Sargent says "Ok patrolmen, we really hate bikers, so let's go out to Ortega Highway today and harrass them for no reason. We don't need one, we're cops."

That would be harrassment, but that is not what is going on. If somebody in a black pickup did this, they'd be pulling over black pickups. Somebody who assaults a police officer is a real danger and needs to be dealt with. I'm sure these guys have bragged to their friends about how cool they were to "put the chippie in his place". Maybe one of the riders pulled over will turn them in.
 

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This has to be one of the most eloquently written, well thought out, and lucid comments I've ever read on this subjuct, and I could not have done any better myself. It seems like "das" has a realistic and practical assessment of the balance between personal risk and danger to life and limb.



Bravo. I agree 100%.
 

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Just my opinion, but I think that you are the one missing the "BIG picture". It doesn't matter how many or what percentage of people are breaking a particular law or set of laws, or getting killed or injured. It's still a bad idea to ban or otherwise restrict motorcycle usage on that or any other road.



Maybe a vague analogy would help.... a major premise of our legal system is that you are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. As many people past and present have stated and believe, even if this system allows 100 guilty people to walk free, if it prevents even 1 extra innocent person from being penalized, that's acceptable.



This is a similar situation, but sort of reverse. Even if 100 motorcyclists break the law on this highway, placing restrictions on it to prevent even one law-abiding motorcyclist from using it is unacceptable.



Sure, it would be nice if everyone would use the road safely, but that's not the point.



If it bothers you to know that motorcyclists are using that road unsafely, then, rather than seeking restrictions, perhaps you should seek to establish a day or days when that road is closed to non motorcycling traffic, with emergency medical assistance on hand, etc. Go for it. I'm not willing to help you, though (because, among many other reasons, I don't live anywhere close to that road).



P.S. Pulling over and allowing faster-moving traffic to pass you is just common courtesy, not doing so is just egotism. Just because someone wants to go faster than you does not mean that he/she thinks that it is their right to use the road as their personal property, even if you are already traveling at the posted limit (or well above it). In case it matters, yes, I have pulled my sportbike over to allow a pickup truck to pass me (the road surface was lousy with potholes, patches and sand, he obviously knew the road well, and I'd never been on it before).
 

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I am glad that you are a 100% law abiding motorcyclist but at least I admit that I am not. I ride 10-25 miles an hour faster than the speed of traffic on the freeway. So you can definitely site me for speeding there allthough no CHP officer ever has, maybe because they realize that that is the safest way for me to ride. If I was on the Ortega Highway which I understand is a choice bit of road I most likely would be speeding there as well, maybe not over 100 mph on straits but speeding all the same. When I do group rides I've noticed that I am a natural tail end charley as I tend to be cautious and on these occasions I am also breaking the law as yes, I tend to be speeding.

However, it seems that you have misunderstood my comment, I am not advocating "needless harrassment of bikers" as you so eloquently put it. I am just saying that I don't object to officers doing their job. If it means stopping me to ask about a crime where I loosely match the only desciption they have so be it.

I ride a bike for the sense of freedom and immediate consequence that it gives me.
 

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Not to change the subject, but has anyone else ever wondered what motivates a cop to be a cop? It sure isn't the money!



You might be surprised, a highschool grad. can join the CHP and be pulling in 60 thou a year in 2-3 years. That is more money than I make with my college degree working in a so called high tech job.



As to the character of police officers again you might be surprised how hard it is to become a CHP officer. The psychological investigation and background check is very thorough.



As far as getting jaded, the officer who scrapes us sportbikers off the pavement week after week can hardly be blamed for pulling us over to warn or ticket us when we are speeding. It is the CHPs job to reduce the number of accidents per highway mile travelled in California. If they see a particular group of riders or section of highway involved in a disproportionate amount of accidents it is reasonable that they focus resources in that direction.







 

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The number of apples of either persuasion is irrelevant.

I don't know the specifics of this particular incident. Maybe those guys didn't have plates, and therefore deserved to be pulled over. My best wishes go out to the officer, and his speedy recovery.

Any argument, such as yours, that is based on some arbitrary numerical figure to determine the appropriateness of some particular activity is inherhently flawed and intellectually dishonest. Who decides how many "bad apples" is too many, and therefore bikes are banned from that road? Beyond that, most people arguing for more regulation in a certain area simply don't care what the numbers are anyway. To reference your gun argument, gun control proponets claim that too many kids are killed by guns, and then proceed to vastly overstate and misrepresent that number by including anyone under the age of 20, including gang-bangers and drug dealers. They don't care about the number. They want our guns.

Banning motorcycles from Ortega highway will not have the effect of reducing motorcycle deaths. More likely, it will merely shift the location of some of the fatal accidents. Maybe it will shift some of the knee-dragging traffic closer in to the city, causing more deaths of pedestrians and other motorists, although I will concede that this is mere speculation.

By claiming that you would be willing to give up your guns in order to save one life, you are implicitly saying that you will allow government to take everybody's guns, not just yours. Beyond embodying the epitome of tyranny, this situation would result in a higher incidence of gun deaths. Less guns in the hands of law-abiding people = more deaths at the hands of criminals.

Come out of your utopian fantasy and say hello to reality.
 

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stevegrab wrote:

I sincerely hope both of you need the aid of the police some day, and they just spit in your face.





Been there, done that. Of all the things I've heard the Orange County Sherriff's department say to me, my favorite is "I really can't do anything to them until they actually hurt you."



...which is not to say that I feel anything other than disgust and anger at the attack on the CHP officer. But in Orange County, there is a great difference between the CHP and the OCSherriffs.



-doc
 

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You (inadvertently) hit the nail on the head.

If you are breaking laws 9 out of 10 minutes while riding your bike (as I probably do as well) maybe this is a sign that there are too many laws regarding the behavior of vehicles. Maybe, given their lesser mass and lesser threat to the health of other motorists, motorcycles should be somewhat exempt from some traffic laws. It is ridiculous that I, on my 2000 Yamaha R1, must ride under the same constraints as some grizzled frump in his/her mercury medicare sled.

Cops need to spend more of their taxpayer-funded time catching criminals, not extorting money from sportbike riders (and anyone with a sports car for that manner) because their driving habits are in violation of some unreasonably restrictive traffic regulation.
 

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Who's the brain donor?

So it's now OK for cops to act as jack-booted judges and jury?

Yeah, I can see how 2 morons with stolen bikes are far more detrimental to society than a KGB/Gestapo police department. I hope you're the first one they beat down for jaywalking.
 

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Re: You (inadvertently) hit the nail on the head.

Ferris,

In my experience as a biker I have been given leeway by the officers I have met. On freeways I seem to be able to speed 10 mph faster than treffic with no CHP intervention. On back roads I have only one ticket for coming out of a corner at about 90 mph. I was written up for 70. SO hey, I'll take it.

In many respects I aggree with your arguement, However, as a group I think we underestimate the risk we pose to other motorists and people on the ground on our blasts down rural roads.
 

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In my experience....

I don't live in California, so I can't speak about the interference (or lack thereof) that police pose to bikers there. I know that they have little to no tolerance for riders here. I was stopped for doing 53 in a 40 on a sunny afternoon on a two lane semi-rural road with zero traffic (sherriff's speed trap.) The local police department set up lidar traps on the road that I live on a couple times a week for two months last summer. I have had cops whip around and follow me for blocks for jetting away from an intersection a little too quick.

I literally ride in fear of the cops a lot of the time here in Minneapolis, not just because of the police themselves, but because if I am prosecuted for excessive speeding, careless, or whatever, my insurance will go through the roof and my riding days will be over. Frankly, I could care less how many tickets I get. It's the insurance that kills me, and the cops know it.
 

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As one who rides Ortega (and has been pulled over)... I know that the people that are riding at 6:45 on a Sunday morning are usually the hard-core knee draggers. It's common knowledge that if you want to go fast at Ortega, you go early. I question how many bike theives are hard-core like that. Who's to say they weren't a couple of hooligan knee-draggers (not all who scrape knees are hooligans, but you know what I mean) weren't our riding their track bikes? Granted it takes a screwed up head to beat up a cop, but I just wanted to throw that out there.



Also, "Ninja-style" sportbikes means two different things to you/me and the average news watcher. Anybody who has a bike with fairings is riding a "ninja-style" bike to anyone who is not a motorcyclist. Besides, they were probably riding GSXRs anyway! That is the bike of choice for hooligans is it not? Just kidding!



I hope they catch these guys soon.
 

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I was very sorry to find out that a CHP officer had been beaten when I was pulled over on Ortega Highway an hour after the incident had taken place. Riding a black "ninja style" motorcycle I knew I was going to be stopped repeatedly on the way home. Every time I was stopped I was courteous to the officer knowing that he was looking for the perpetrators who almost killed a fellow officer.





This incident will make it nearly impossible to enjoy Sunday morning rides on Ortega. The police have been heavily patrolling the area for the last several months and I'm sure it will get worse.

 

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Sometimes getting pulled over could be to your benefit...



True story:



I was only pulled over on my bike 2 times. Both times were last year within a week of each other.



The first time I was on the 440 in Staten Island at about 10:30pm on a Saturday night. I'm in the left lane (2 lane highway) with very little traffic. I'm going between 60 & 65 (50 mph zone) and was just beginning to pass 2 cagers traveling about 45 to 50 in the right lane. Knowing how idiots love to just change lanes at will, I'm keeping my eye on the one in the back. Well, he stays in his lane...just as the idiot out front pulls into my lane with no warning (let alone a signal). My front tire was just past his rear bumper when he decided to do this, so I roll off the throttle and start to apply the brakes. Just as this is happening, we pass under an overpass & guess who's camped out on the other side just out of sight...yup, NYPD Highway Patrol. Well, this cager-simpleton nails (and I mean NAILS!) the brake. I've got 2 choices...try to make an emergency brake attempt (never fun!) or cut around. A quick look over my right shoulder shows the other car is close in the right lane, but not quite on me yet. I swerve hard to the right, get the bike on the white line & open up the throttle and pass the idiot in front of me with maybe a foot to spare from the guy in the right lane behind me.



So I'm on my 3rd "Hail Mary" (funny how you remember that stuff at these times...) when I get the full light & siren treatment behind me. Damn! I wasn't doing anything wrong! I was saving my life! This is BULL!



I start to pull over when I see the shoulder is totally covered with sand/gravel/moondust...whatever...just crap. Now I'm thinking, "Great, I avoided that accident just so I could drop my bike on the side of the road in the dark!" I use my left hand (palm down facing the cop) to motion for him to back off my rear tire a bit (since he was about 2" off it) in case I wipe out. To my surprise, I hear over the P.A., "Just stop it in the lane, don't go off the road". Hmm, guess he saw it too.



So I stop, shut down the bike, take off my helmet, goggles & jacket (hint, if it ain't cold, lose the jacket on a stop) & pull out my wallet. The cop walks over & says, "I want you to know, I'm not pulling you over for speeding. I pulled you over for splitting those 2 cars back there in front of me." I nod, say "ah, that's why", and proceed to tell him, in detail, exactly what happened as I hand over my papers. He listens, tells me to wait while he verifies my paperwork, and returns about a minute later. He hands me back my papers, asks a few more questions & says, "OK, be careful" & lets me go.



I'm amazed, those of you in NYC know that a stop by "Highway" pretty much means a definite ticket. The only thing I can figure is that he appreciated the fact I was respectful and didn't try to lie or excuse myself out of it.



Almost a week later, on a Friday night, I'm headed down Hylan Blvd to meet some friends at a movie (& of course, I'm late as usual). Again, I'm maybe 10 mph over the limit. Well, I get the light & siren treatment again. All I can think is, "Great!!! I'm late enough as it is!! Just great!!"



As I pull over, the car doesn’t stop behind me, but stops next to me. I don't even have a chance to dismount when who walks over but the same friggin cop from the week before!! He looks up and down at the bike, then leans over to me and says, "I stopped you last week, right?"



"Uh, yeah."



"You been drinking tonight?"



"No. I don't do that."



"Where you headed?"



"The theater. Meeting some friends."



"Good. Don't go this way. There's a roadblock down about 2 miles. DWI checkpoint. You'll be stuck in traffic forever. Take care"
 
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