I dropped Motorcyclist Mag more than a year ago and it was for a couple of reasons. They essentially seemed to be just like Cycle World and I couldn't stand the juvenile banter they would print. Every other word was "Roosting" and the like and it seemed as if it were being published out of some lame high school shop class. Now, to believe the above story, they are ripping off journalists and their readers. I'm just glad that I don't have to go to the effort of canceling my subscription. Good story.
Windmills Tilted: 'Motorcyclist Mag is Plagiarist Mag'
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A good article, with no doubt some truth to it, but stating that plagiarism is one of "the three worst crimes a human can commit against another" is hyperbolic and ridiculous.
If it's all true, then Peter Jones should hire a lawyer and get satisfaction in court rather than playing the victim in print. I feel some sympathy for Jones, but I'm sick of people whining and carping but never doing anything concrete to change their situation.
If it's all true, then Peter Jones should hire a lawyer and get satisfaction in court rather than playing the victim in print. I feel some sympathy for Jones, but I'm sick of people whining and carping but never doing anything concrete to change their situation.
Peter is a good guy and you can trust his story to be true, I did a wheelie school with him and have met him at the races and he is a very straight forward and "tell it like it is" individual. I subscribe to S&S and read this story. I also saw the piece in question on TV and remember at the time that I thought I saw him in the background and that it was strange. Sometimes the "Big Boys" get too big for their own good and think they are untouchable. Besides any legal action I think Motorcyclist needs to fess up real big and real quick. It will be interesting to see how they address this.
Jamie
Jamie
With all due respect, "...but never doing anything concrete to change their situation..." should read: "but never doing anything concrete to change their situation according to my version of satisfaction"
Wasting years in court to profiteer might not be Jones' idea of closure -- telling the truth publically might be.
Wasting years in court to profiteer might not be Jones' idea of closure -- telling the truth publically might be.
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I don't see the point of this article, is it to make us think that MO and MS&S are highly ethical and moral in their actions, while also making us think the opposite of the other mags mentioned? If so, whatever. I read motorcycle magazines to learn about motorcycles. Seek an attorney regarding copy right law if you think you are in the right and let justice be done.
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I thought that the Motorcylist TV show was discontinued? Defintely a dirty trick, but doesn't Speed owe in some of the blame for giving it to Motorcyclist (something that was intended for Bike Week. ). If Motorcyclist had any class they would acknowledge the idea and build on it. Having seen situations where I wanted to use someone elses software or hardware design for a project(within the company of course) it is imperative you acknowledge that person etc. It is good karma and good business cause folks will come out of the woodwork with other ideas to help. The person that orginally thought of the idea also becomes a powerful ally. Motorcyclist should of approached the guy and asked for permission etc. SHAME SHAME.
I agree that to classify plagerism as one of the three worst crimes one can commit against a person is hyperbolic, but not that it is ridiculous.
In my opinion, theft of intellectual property is far worse than simple economic theft. If someone steals my money, I can always make more, but if they steal my creative work, that cannot be easily regained.
Maybe Jones SHOULD take them to court, but at best he could get monetary compensation. The court of public opinion is likely a more effective venue for this kind of issue.
When Stephen Ambrose was accused of lifting phrases and entire paragraphs from earlier works, nobody took him to court, they instead went to the press. The original authors whose work was allegedly stolen probably could not clearly show that they suffered economic loss as a result of the "theft." Hell, they probably did not even want any money from him. More likely they just didn't want him to take credit for their creative work.
I am not expressing any opinion on the validity of any of Jones' allegations; however, I am saying that by publishing this in his magazine, and getting it posted here, he is decidedly NOT whining and carping, but rather is doing something very concrete to change the situation.
Bob
In my opinion, theft of intellectual property is far worse than simple economic theft. If someone steals my money, I can always make more, but if they steal my creative work, that cannot be easily regained.
Maybe Jones SHOULD take them to court, but at best he could get monetary compensation. The court of public opinion is likely a more effective venue for this kind of issue.
When Stephen Ambrose was accused of lifting phrases and entire paragraphs from earlier works, nobody took him to court, they instead went to the press. The original authors whose work was allegedly stolen probably could not clearly show that they suffered economic loss as a result of the "theft." Hell, they probably did not even want any money from him. More likely they just didn't want him to take credit for their creative work.
I am not expressing any opinion on the validity of any of Jones' allegations; however, I am saying that by publishing this in his magazine, and getting it posted here, he is decidedly NOT whining and carping, but rather is doing something very concrete to change the situation.
Bob
Mr. Jones:
How did you lose control. At what point did you let this project get away from you. Thieves are everywhere, it is up to the creator of all property to protect it.
It seems there is ample bad blood in this industry of MC publications. I would guess a contributing factor is your industry is quite small, not alot of players. All the more reason to watch your back.
Don't get me wrong, a thief is a thief! But remember, first time shame on you, second time shame on me.
How did you lose control. At what point did you let this project get away from you. Thieves are everywhere, it is up to the creator of all property to protect it.
It seems there is ample bad blood in this industry of MC publications. I would guess a contributing factor is your industry is quite small, not alot of players. All the more reason to watch your back.
Don't get me wrong, a thief is a thief! But remember, first time shame on you, second time shame on me.
Fore-warned is fore-armed. I chose not to deal with unethical people when I can avoid it. You may get burned but if you give me a headsup I'll appreciate it and will try to return the favor if the same happens to me. If I get burned I'll try to drag the scumbag into the light of day for all to see. They think it's funny? I'd have tried to do just what Peter did, at least...
Bob, if you buy a piece of property, land for example, it is yours until you die. Intellectual property has no such distinctions. Article 1 Section 8: Congress shall have the power... To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.
Now it can be argued to what value his intellectual property has in selling a product, in this case a magazine. But that's what lawyers are for.
I contend that the assertion that it's a worse crime than taking a permanent piece of your property is dubious.
As for unsubstantiated allegations on an online website, I take them for what their worth, which is the point of the poster above.
BTW, Doris Kearns Goodwin was also accused of doing the same thing, methinks.
Now it can be argued to what value his intellectual property has in selling a product, in this case a magazine. But that's what lawyers are for.
I contend that the assertion that it's a worse crime than taking a permanent piece of your property is dubious.
As for unsubstantiated allegations on an online website, I take them for what their worth, which is the point of the poster above.
BTW, Doris Kearns Goodwin was also accused of doing the same thing, methinks.
"Far be it from us ever to dish the dirt..." Kind of like apologizing for something before you dot it, no? Self absolution: There's nothing worse. (apart from murder, assault, and plagiarism, of course) ;-)
All kidding aside, that's terrible to hear. I hope he sues the pants off them. After that, he should really consider going into drama. He's a natural.
All kidding aside, that's terrible to hear. I hope he sues the pants off them. After that, he should really consider going into drama. He's a natural.
I agree ...there is a general disintegration
of personal ethics going on. It's a shame
because the end result is a world of deminishing quality of life. I for one refuse
to give in to it. I always thought that a course
in ethics at the high school level should be required. You have to start somewhere.
of personal ethics going on. It's a shame
because the end result is a world of deminishing quality of life. I for one refuse
to give in to it. I always thought that a course
in ethics at the high school level should be required. You have to start somewhere.
Actually, I am not refering to the legality of ownership. If I write a book and lift large blocks of text from some obscure author published 200 years ago, and claim this as my own work, I am guilty of plagarism in any moral or ethical sense of the term, regardless of copyright law. The law (copyright or patent) limits the period over which I have the right to exclusive profit from the sale or other use of my creative work, but does not limit the time I can claim it as my work.
If I were to happen across a previously unknown volume of Shakespere's poems, I can publish them without paying any royalties to his heirs. I have no problem with that. However, if I were to publish them and claim them as my own work, that is stealing something from Shakespere (and from western civilization) that cannot be valued in monetary terms.
Sir Isaac Newton's theories on the laws of motion and gravity will always be his. If an unscrupulous colleague named Smyth had somehow stolen credit for these discoveries, we would now refer to these laws as "Smythian Physics." What kind of monetary value would you place on having that legacy stolen from you? That is what I mean by saying that it is worse than theft of money or other property.
BTW, I believe that you are right about Doris Kearns Goodwin. Seems to have been a rash of this in the past couple of years.
An as to the instant case, I am making no claim to knowing what is the actual truth.
If I were to happen across a previously unknown volume of Shakespere's poems, I can publish them without paying any royalties to his heirs. I have no problem with that. However, if I were to publish them and claim them as my own work, that is stealing something from Shakespere (and from western civilization) that cannot be valued in monetary terms.
Sir Isaac Newton's theories on the laws of motion and gravity will always be his. If an unscrupulous colleague named Smyth had somehow stolen credit for these discoveries, we would now refer to these laws as "Smythian Physics." What kind of monetary value would you place on having that legacy stolen from you? That is what I mean by saying that it is worse than theft of money or other property.
BTW, I believe that you are right about Doris Kearns Goodwin. Seems to have been a rash of this in the past couple of years.
An as to the instant case, I am making no claim to knowing what is the actual truth.
When I moved to the US from the UK, I started reading the US bike mags. While I still prefer the UK Bike/Ride mags I've found a couple of good ones here. However, Motorcyclist mag/tv is not part of it. Perhaps because I am used to writers being cynical about marketing, the difference was very VERY clear.
They seem to be very marketing oriented, saying what the manufacturors want us to hear, with no serious attempt to do anything except push product. The TV show is especially bad at that. I have'nt seen one bike review on that show that told me what I wanted to know. It all seems so 'nice' and I'm sick of it. The only way I am going to believe you if you say a bike is brilliant is if you don't say EVERY bike is brilliant. Any their lead tester, (name of Kusagi or something similar), has all the TV presence of a loaf of damp bread. Completely useless.
Since I'm on this rant, can I repeat my point about Dave DeSpain, made on an earlier thread. The man is a smiling, slimey mouthed, air-headed waste of air time.
Anyways, back to topic. I don't buy the mag anymore and I've stopped watching the show. I know MO has been going through some hard times, but at least you know when it reviews a bike it'll say what it actually thinks - which is bloody usefull.
PS. Did I mention that I don't can't stand Dave DeSpain?
PPS. Good to see that Johno is still testing, he kinda dropped off the radar for a while there. But what happened to his weekly rants? I loved the way they stirred up discussion.... or is he just lying low until the war is over, doing the politic thing at the moment? (And before I get flamed, that was a joke)
They seem to be very marketing oriented, saying what the manufacturors want us to hear, with no serious attempt to do anything except push product. The TV show is especially bad at that. I have'nt seen one bike review on that show that told me what I wanted to know. It all seems so 'nice' and I'm sick of it. The only way I am going to believe you if you say a bike is brilliant is if you don't say EVERY bike is brilliant. Any their lead tester, (name of Kusagi or something similar), has all the TV presence of a loaf of damp bread. Completely useless.
Since I'm on this rant, can I repeat my point about Dave DeSpain, made on an earlier thread. The man is a smiling, slimey mouthed, air-headed waste of air time.
Anyways, back to topic. I don't buy the mag anymore and I've stopped watching the show. I know MO has been going through some hard times, but at least you know when it reviews a bike it'll say what it actually thinks - which is bloody usefull.
PS. Did I mention that I don't can't stand Dave DeSpain?
PPS. Good to see that Johno is still testing, he kinda dropped off the radar for a while there. But what happened to his weekly rants? I loved the way they stirred up discussion.... or is he just lying low until the war is over, doing the politic thing at the moment? (And before I get flamed, that was a joke)
Peter.. I forgot to ask you in the last post... what was your contract? Was it flat payment and the Bike Week owned the rights? Because if they did....
I've watched my brother sell the overall rights to a TV series he wrote and what they did to it damaged his writing career very badly early on. And he had no come-back at all. Fortunately he is now a big enough name that he can put clauses in like director or production company approval, even script change approval. But he was lucky to get out of the disastrous directing debacle with his career intact.
By the way, despite my statement above that I don't watch motorcyclist, I did see the Gobert piece on a friends Tivo. Interesting article.
I've watched my brother sell the overall rights to a TV series he wrote and what they did to it damaged his writing career very badly early on. And he had no come-back at all. Fortunately he is now a big enough name that he can put clauses in like director or production company approval, even script change approval. But he was lucky to get out of the disastrous directing debacle with his career intact.
By the way, despite my statement above that I don't watch motorcyclist, I did see the Gobert piece on a friends Tivo. Interesting article.
My argument boils down to this: You invent some drug that cures a particularly nasty disease. After 20 years, it's no longer your property according to the law. Someone says they're taking the drug you invented (in generic, of course). You say "I invented that drug." There may some societal value to that (getting good tables at nice restaurants, recognition, etc.) and that's okay. You should see some of the deals Universities work out with professors regarding such properties. But someone comes and steals your house, you're pretty much screwed.
From firsthand knowledge, the way things roll in science, you'd know if it were Newton or Smyth who wrote "Philosophiae naturalis principia mathematica". Seldom do we get the stories wrong about science, but not scientists; the story usually told about Galileo is largely falsehoods.
From firsthand knowledge, the way things roll in science, you'd know if it were Newton or Smyth who wrote "Philosophiae naturalis principia mathematica". Seldom do we get the stories wrong about science, but not scientists; the story usually told about Galileo is largely falsehoods.
I always suspected you were a drama queen Johnny Boy. Try not being so overly protective and emotional and face the facts.
I made it very clear that Jones was wronged. To BLAME him is not the point. To look at this problem from the outside you cannot help but ask, "what could he have done to protect himself?".
We all value work product, but you damn well better be willing and able to protect that product. If some of the people in your industry are willing and able to steal product and ideas and call them their own, why are you all so surprised by the fact that it happened. When I read things like"they do it all the time" and alike.
Mr. Jones, like I said, sue em if you can win, learn from this mistake and move on. And BTW don't let Burns come to your defense, it does not help you cause.
I made it very clear that Jones was wronged. To BLAME him is not the point. To look at this problem from the outside you cannot help but ask, "what could he have done to protect himself?".
We all value work product, but you damn well better be willing and able to protect that product. If some of the people in your industry are willing and able to steal product and ideas and call them their own, why are you all so surprised by the fact that it happened. When I read things like"they do it all the time" and alike.
Mr. Jones, like I said, sue em if you can win, learn from this mistake and move on. And BTW don't let Burns come to your defense, it does not help you cause.
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