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The Toad
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Note that there are no zero emissions vehicles. That's doublespeak for vehicles that merely shift the pollution somewhere else.... nimby, in other words.
Yes, but by saying that you imply that all sources of energy are equally efficient and pollute at equal levels. That's not true; a large electrical generating operation uses a lot less fuel to produce a comparable amount of energy as, for instance, a car engine. You should also consider that there are sources of energy that are zero emissions, such as hydro-electric or nuclear power plants.

Clearly there's a lot more to this than just running out and buying electric cars and bikes, but it's just as clear that what we're doing now is going to be viable much longer. Evne if you ignore the ecological issues, what are the estimates now; 40 years of oil left at current consumption?
 

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The Toad
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yada yada yada.....

Yes, but by saying that you imply that all sources of energy are equally efficient and pollute at equal levels. That's not true; a large electrical generating operation uses a lot less fuel to produce a comparable amount of energy as, for instance, a car engine. You should also consider that there are sources of energy that are zero emissions, such as hydro-electric or nuclear power plants.

Clearly there's a lot more to this than just running out and buying electric cars and bikes, but it's just as clear that what we're doing now is going to be viable much longer. Evne if you ignore the ecological issues, what are the estimates now; 40 years of oil left at current consumption?
.... yeah I know all that but there still aren't any zero emissions vehicles. Though lithium batteries are a definite improvement over lead-acid as far as the amount of current needed to recharge the battery pack.

And fission plants aren't even close to zero-emissions. Now fusion...... but those aren't even on the horizon yet. And probably never will be with the DOE in charge of the research.

When they have capacitive storage systems worked out is when you will see EVs become viable. Virtually no losses and superquick recharge times.
 

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Aging Cafe` Racer
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Offering a modern TDI diesel version of all models of cars trucks and SUVs would cut fuel consumption in half.
 

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You're paying $7k for a bike that HAS to have the battery pack replaced after 6 yrs. At a cost of $1166 annual plus the cost of recharging this is novel but not a deal for an off-road bike. You can buy a XR650 for $3000 and still not spend the remaining $4k in gas, insurance, tires and maintenance over the next decade.
 

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Snuggles
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Offering a modern TDI diesel version of all models of cars trucks and SUVs would cut fuel consumption in half.
I don't know about you, but over here diesel is a buck and a half more expensive than the low grade gas.

Any idea why diesel is so much more expensive? Especially since I heard it was cheaper to produce.

I'm no Boeing Engineer, so be patient with me.
 

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The Toad
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I don't know about you, but over here diesel is a buck and a half more expensive than the low grade gas.

Any idea why diesel is so much more expensive? Especially since I heard it was cheaper to produce.

I'm no Boeing Engineer, so be patient with me.
Supply and demand. Europe is switching to diesels and the envirowackos won't allow any new refineries to be built in the USA. We have to import it now thanx to the lefties. Remember the liberals WANT fuel to be $5-6 per gallon. They proudly proclaim it. Why is anyone confused about rising prices? It's what the politicians and misanthropic special interest groups want.
 

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Snuggles
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Supply and demand. Europe is switching to diesels and the envirowackos won't allow any new refineries to be built in the USA. We have to import it now thanx to the lefties. Remember the liberals WANT fuel to be $5-6 per gallon. They proudly proclaim it. Why is anyone confused about rising prices? It's what the politicians and misanthropic special interest groups want.
Don't get me on the refinery rant. I've been *****ing about the lack of new refineries for the past six years.
 

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Don't get me on the refinery rant. I've been *****ing about the lack of new refineries for the past six years.
Refineries are going to do anyone a damn bit of good when there's no more crude to pump into them. Not to mention the fact that India and China are going to scarf up a huge chunk of the available crude anyway. We're a lot better off creating alternatives to gas and diesel.
 

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Snuggles
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Kenneth, I am all for alternative fuels. I don't care if it hydrogen, combustible salt water, or (insert new fuel source here). But there is no shortage of oil. Crude oil pricing is based on creative speculation and there is a ton of oil still bubbling around underground. The current price spike is pure speculation combined with the inability of US refineries to maintain output.

The frustrating point for me is that people are wasting time with hybrid cars that get only a few more miles to the gallon better than a civic...and even that is in question. There is a complete lack of commitment from the auto industry to actually create true alternatives. The corn based fuels are also a sad example as now price speculation on corn is now effecting the majority of our food product do to manufactures reliance on corn syrup and fillers.
 

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Kenneth, I am all for alternative fuels. I don't care if it hydrogen, combustible salt water, or (insert new fuel source here). But there is no shortage of oil. Crude oil pricing is based on creative speculation and there is a ton of oil still bubbling around underground. The current price spike is pure speculation combined with the inability of US refineries to maintain output.

The frustrating point for me is that people are wasting time with hybrid cars that get only a few more miles to the gallon better than a civic...and even that is in question. There is a complete lack of commitment from the auto industry to actually create true alternatives. The corn based fuels are also a sad example as now price speculation on corn is now effecting the majority of our food product do to manufactures reliance on corn syrup and fillers.
I agree with everything you said, especially the stupidity of using corn to make fuel, with one exception. There are a lot of people who spend a lot of time figuring out the world's oil reserves from a number of different perspectives. The most optimistic of them say 60 years...even if it's 120, you know it's just a matter of time. How cool would it be if every one of us could ride in a Hummer sized mega truck and not spend 10% of our income to fuel it, and not trash the environment? I want more energy, everyone does. But I want it clean and affordable, and oil ain't either.
 

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Don't get me on the refinery rant. I've been *****ing about the lack of new refineries for the past six years.
I have 3 refineries in my back yard... 2 more 10 miles away and yet we pay the highest gas price in the country. Granted CA has different formulations that the rest of the country but shipping isnt an issue.
 

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Refineries are going to do anyone a damn bit of good when there's no more crude to pump into them. Not to mention the fact that India and China are going to scarf up a huge chunk of the available crude anyway. We're a lot better off creating alternatives to gas and diesel.
Three of the largest oil shelves in the world- Gulf of Mexico off the coast of So. FL, Under the states of Utah and Co, and ANWR. There is enough oil in those three locations to power North America (as a whole) for over 100yrs. We have the resources but we are not allowed to use them. Environmentalist (did I spell that right) have our elected officials so bunched up that no one will tell them to p!ss off while we take care of this problem. Also, in the 70's there were over 30 national refineries in the US. Now there are less than 10. Why? Guess.
He have an issue and it can be solved but some would rather stiffle capitalism for the sake of the enviromental religion than for the sake of economic freedom.

I don't want to seem like I don't care about our natual resources, but we have them and aren't allowed to utilize them. No good reason- just excuses.
 

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I have 3 refineries in my back yard... 2 more 10 miles away and yet we pay the highest gas price in the country. Granted CA has different formulations that the rest of the country but shipping isnt an issue.
Are you sure they aren't production facilities. Refineries are few and far between- yet, Doraville GA has two production centers that look like refineries but are not.
 

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Aging Cafe` Racer
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Here in Wa. diesel is about .50 more a gallon of reg. or .20 more than premium however the increase in milage makes up for it. Two friends of mine drive new TDI Jettas, one a wagon, the other a sedan, both get well over 40 mpg. True they're not the largest car you can get but the wagon in particular can haul kids and dogs without too much trouble. It's pretty easy to imagine a Dodge Caravan or Honda Odyssey geting 35 + mpg out of a clean burning diesel. Something like a Corrolla, Civic, Focus or Mazda 3 should easily get 40+, an Aveo or the up-coming Suzuki Swift should get over 50. Even a Tahoe or Suburban should manage mid 20's with a diesel.

I think it's stupid that the manufacurers don't offer a diesel variant, I'd buy a diesel Tahoe or Expedition in a minute.
 

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Three of the largest oil shelves in the world- Gulf of Mexico off the coast of So. FL, .
Tbat's quite a claim Kirk, considering nobody's done an inventory:

WASHINGTON -- With oil prices nearing $60 a barrel, the good will toward Florida finally ran dry.

After agreeing last week to maintain the existing moratorium on oil and gas drilling off Florida's shores, the U.S. Senate on Tuesday moved forward with conducting an inventory of energy reserves in all U.S. waters, including the eastern Gulf of Mexico.

By a vote of 52-44, the Senate rejected an amendment sponsored by Florida's senators that would have deleted the inventory from the comprehensive energy bill now moving through the Senate
 

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The Toad
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
C'mon Ken.

Tbat's quite a claim Kirk, considering nobody's done an inventory:

WASHINGTON -- With oil prices nearing $60 a barrel, the good will toward Florida finally ran dry.

After agreeing last week to maintain the existing moratorium on oil and gas drilling off Florida's shores, the U.S. Senate on Tuesday moved forward with conducting an inventory of energy reserves in all U.S. waters, including the eastern Gulf of Mexico.

By a vote of 52-44, the Senate rejected an amendment sponsored by Florida's senators that would have deleted the inventory from the comprehensive energy bill now moving through the Senate
You know what the game REALLY is. The nation that runs out of oil last wins. The supposed leaders of the nations are apparently incapable of playing any other game.
 
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